Gunsmithing - bound book question

[jcaoloveshine]

Been looking into gunsmithing as something on the side, and read that you have to maintain a log of ingoing/released firearms and that the ATF can audit you as they please.

Has anyone ever experienced one of these audits? Do they come in and just start scanning your books or looking up serials/people? Or is it more just to check that things are being logged?

Do you guys use paper bound books, or more digital solutions?

The more I look into it, seems like the more headaches there are to deal with...makes me respect those in the profession that much more.

[jcaoloveshine]

bump, does anyone use a digital logbook?

[M1NM]

bump, does anyone use a digital logbook?

Would it qualify as a "bound book" - the mere title seems to imply ink and paper. Something not subject to an electronic Hillary type deletion.

[stitchnicklas]

had my ffl for a year...
zero contact with atf except to report a psycho...

paper is best
they check your bound book for proper entry,and check what your book says you have onsite and what is actually onsite,make sure everything matches.

pretty simple if your only doing gunsmithing and not transfers and sales of firearms

[jcaoloveshine]

Thanks guys.

If I wanted to actually open a storefront with items for sale and transfer in addition to gunsmithing, does a paper book still need to be used? Do you need separate books for sales vs repair work?

Obviously all the lgs I've visited all use something digital but not sure if you'd also need a paper book for compliance as well? And would audits be much more of a pain if you decided to operate a storefront?

[kemasa]

Electronic books are allowed, but make sure you are aware of ALL of the rules and issues with doing so. There are packages you can buy or you can do it yourself, but doing it yourself is more of an issue.

Sometimes the ATF ask for it to be printed out, but I know of a high volume place that said that the ATF can print it out as it would be a huge stack of papers to do so, as well as expensive.

The ATF seems to like the electronic version since it makes it much easier to search.

[jcaoloveshine]

Thanks kemasa, good to know. Does that mean the atf can drop by unannounced and collect data about gun owners with impunity? Eg just scan any page they want and walk out with that info? Sounds like it'd be mighty easy to build a registration database that way...

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[kemasa]

There are limits, but the FFL has to push their rights, which can be an issue. A normal inspection can only occur once per year.

[acespawnshop]

We also get calls from the National tracing center and we have to comply with that also. Basically they can ask for copies of a 4473.

[kemasa]

Investigations can happen without limits.

[jcaoloveshine]

Makes sense...has ATF ever just pulled info en masse from your books though? Targeted investigations seem reasonable, as an FFL though, I suppose I'd feel more uncomfortable about "blanket" data collection.

[kemasa]

I have never had that happen, but that does not mean it has not occurred.

[Condorguns]

I keep separate bound books for gunsmithing and sales.

[Gunsmith Dan]

YES ATF is doing full audits for even gunsmith only no gun sales shops as well ..... and I mean full audit.

I know because I just had one because I requested a address change to move to new shop.

So yes keep a proper per ATF A&D bound book and unless you doing so much sales you getting hand cramps paper the way to go ..... most commercial programs for A&D are hundreds of dollars even for the cheapo ones that never work right.

[JeffM]

YES ATF is doing full audits for even gunsmith only no gun sales shops as well ..... and I mean full audit.

I know because I just had one because I requested a address change to move to new shop.

So yes keep a proper per ATF A&D bound book and unless you doing so much sales you getting hand cramps paper the way to go ..... most commercial programs for A&D are hundreds of dollars even for the cheapo ones that never work right.

I'd go with Wes Morris' (Ten Percent Firearms) Excel spreadsheet for what you're doing. There's a very detailed post here somewhere about it. It's free and easy to use. Over time you may end up with enough entries that having a searchable database may come in handy.

Email ad@tenpercentfirearms.com and it will auto-reply with instructions and the A&D Excel file.

http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=93&products_id=768&zenid=8u4d26gtp3tabs0lla3h1rbup1