Diserning truth through lies

[MountainMike]

First let me say that I'm a follower of Christ. I moved to a new area this last July. I've been on the hunt for a new home church but some of the things said from the pulpit have me concerned. I will try and keep this as anonymous as possible while still providing direct quotes or paraphrases there of.

What I am asking is for fellow Christians to help me discern what was said as well as the actions of the pastor. I am not looking for criticisms or mockery of non believers.

Situation 1:
"Heaven is heaven because God has total control. Heaven is on earth where He has total control in your life."


This was my first red flag because it was incomplete and this half truth implies there are aspects in which God is not in control. For example. In Job we learned that even Satan is on a leash.

Job 1:12 - Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him."

God allows evil to happen. Why He does this is inconsequential to the issue at hand. The evil one must come before God's throne to accuse the people of the earth and cannot act without permission. So God has absolute sovereignty in all things.

Jeremiah 23:24 - "Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord. "

God is omnipresent. Because He is all powerful in all things in all places, all places cannot be Heaven. Indeed omnipresence implies God is in Hell too. Only there his wrath is not hidden.

Situation 2:
The pastor jovially tells a fictitious story of a boy coming to his door saying he's the dad.

My concern has more to do with the attitude in which he expressed while telling the story. I cannot describe it all that well but it was meant to invoke laughter. Essentially glorifying a situation that has wrong all over it.

Romans 12:2 "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."

Situation 3:
"Children of God have no rights before the Father."

It's a short quote and I would want the pastor to expand on it or give more detail as to what he meant but taken at face value this is a lie from beginning to end. Inheritance rights and heavenly rewards are guarantees through Christ. Also through Christ all those that call upon His name have the right to approach and commune with God the Father. Not having any rights is the same as slavery. Indeed we were slaves to sin until the atoning blood of Jesus freed us(Romans 6). Because the wages of sin is death God is the God of the living (Luke 20:38). To equate the two would be tantamount to saying in a binary system 1=0.

Situation 4:
Inviting an unrepentant non believing prostitute to speak to the congregation.

Do I really need to say anything?

So what say my brothers and sisters in Christ? Am I dealing with the average American pastor? Or a heretic?

Edit: If through reading this anyone recognizes the pastor or church in question please refrain from saying it here. I prefer to confront him in the biblical model for correction within the church. That is confidentially at first and if unrepentant then publicly.

[damon1272]

Time to find a new church. Denominations do not matter as much as a church that speaks the truth. Comes down to what you believe and finding a church that will match that.

[colossians323]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sound doctrine must come from the pulpit, if one is to be shepherding the flock.
We don't know exactly what your pastor is preaching but if it is not in line with the bible, you can either challenge him privately, take 2 or 3, and finally before the congregation. The easy way is to look for another home church.

[Just Dave]

Situation 4:
Inviting an unrepentant non believing prostitute to speak to the congregation.

Do I really need to say anything?

So what say my brothers and sisters in Christ? Am I dealing with the average American pastor? Or a heretic?

Edit: If through reading this anyone recognizes the pastor or church in question please refrain from saying it here. I prefer to confront him in the biblical model for correction within the church. That is confidentially at first and if unrepentant then publicly.

Well I guess that seals the deal.

[MountainMike]

Time to find a new church. Denominations do not matter as much as a church that speaks the truth. Comes down to what you believe and finding a church that will match that.

I couldn't agree more. And after praying over it and sleeping on it, the need to find another church is certain. Only question now is how do I proceed with regards to confronting the pastor and most importantly help the congregation from being misled.

[sdkevin]

Only question now is how do I proceed with regards to confronting the pastor and most importantly help the congregation from being misled.

Is this congregation your following? Why do you feel a need to correct their beliefs?

Seek your own path and move on.

[MountainMike]

Because when I die and I have to answer for the things I've done I do not want one of them to be for refusing to speak for Christ when I was presented the opportunity.

35 Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness. 36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few.

[Not a Cook]

First let me say that I'm a follower of Christ. I moved to a new area this last July. I've been on the hunt for a new home church but some of the things said from the pulpit have me concerned. I will try and keep this as anonymous as possible while still providing direct quotes or paraphrases there of.

What I am asking is for fellow Christians to help me discern what was said as well as the actions of the pastor. I am not looking for criticisms or mockery of non believers.

Situation 1:
"Heaven is heaven because God has total control. Heaven is on earth where He has total control in your life."


This was my first red flag because it was incomplete and this half truth implies there are aspects in which God is not in control. For example. In Job we learned that even Satan is on a leash.

Job 1:12 - Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him."

God allows evil to happen. Why He does this is inconsequential to the issue at hand. The evil one must come before God's throne to accuse the people of the earth and cannot act without permission. So God has absolute sovereignty in all things.

Jeremiah 23:24 - "Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord. "

God is omnipresent. Because He is all powerful in all things in all places, all places cannot be Heaven. Indeed omnipresence implies God is in Hell too. Only there his wrath is not hidden.

"Situation 1" is a relatively common mistake. It can definitely be a red flag, but more investigation is needed.

This one may or may not be a red flag. I'd strongly suggest setting this one aside until you have a chance to get to know the man, and his specific personality, better, just in case you've misunderstood his intent. He could just have a sense of humor that differs from yours and may (stress on the "may") not have intended to make light of or glorify a wrong situation. But yes, definitely a red flag to be on the lookout.

Situation 3:
"Children of God have no rights before the Father."

It's a short quote and I would want the pastor to expand on it or give more detail as to what he meant but taken at face value this is a lie from beginning to end. Inheritance rights and heavenly rewards are guarantees through Christ. Also through Christ all those that call upon His name have the right to approach and commune with God the Father. Not having any rights is the same as slavery. Indeed we were slaves to sin until the atoning blood of Jesus freed us(Romans 6). Because the wages of sin is death God is the God of the living (Luke 20:38). To equate the two would be tantamount to saying in a binary system 1=0.

You're objections are valid, but I'd need to hear this quote in context. I can IMAGINE some things that he might have been trying to convey and he POSSIBLY may have chosen a REALLY poor (and wrong) way of saying them.

Situation 4:
Inviting an unrepentant non believing prostitute to speak to the congregation.

Whoa... WHAT? What (specifically) was the context for situation 4? What did she say to the congregation?

I'm having trouble, no matter how much I try, to imagine ANY context in which your "Situation 4" would have been even remotely appropriate. This one is definitely a BIG RED FLAG, and depending on context and what was said, it may be the ONLY red flag I'd need. WHY would an elder EVER invite ANY lost person to address a congregation?

Do I really need to say anything?

So what say my brothers and sisters in Christ? Am I dealing with the average American pastor? Or a heretic?

Edit: If through reading this anyone recognizes the pastor or church in question please refrain from saying it here. I prefer to confront him in the biblical model for correction within the church. That is confidentially at first and if unrepentant then publicly.

Unfortunately, you could be dealing with "the average American pastor", but that isn't saying much, nor does it address your other questions. It is impossible from the limited information presented in this thread to determine whether or not this gentleman would qualify as a heretic.

Whether or not you should address the above points is difficult to say over an internet forum, and VERY difficult to say without knowing the context of "Situation 4". If you've been there since July (I'm not sure from your OP whether this is the case) and you've become a part of the congregation, I would definitely speak with the pastor about your concerns. If you do so, be sure to remember the various biblical precepts and principals which apply - including that you must do so in a loving, grace-filled manner wherein your goal is not to accuse or attack, but rather to humbly help a brother improve his preaching/teaching ministry.

Questions:
1) Did all four of the situations you presented above occur in one service?
2) Is the pastor's teaching/preaching otherwise biblically sound? In other words, are the above four situations extreme outliers in an otherwise biblically sound teaching ministry, or are they just "par for the course"?

I couldn't agree more. And after praying over it and sleeping on it, the need to find another church is certain. Only question now is how do I proceed with regards to confronting the pastor and most importantly help the congregation from being misled.

RE: "Confronting the pastor" - what is your motivation? Is it to humbly help him improve his preaching/teaching ministry, or is it to "call him out"? Attitude and purpose are key here. Also, HOW you speak with him about this is also key.

Unfortunately, even if he is teaching heresy (which is impossible to tell from the limited information in this thread), it would be a difficult thing (and perhaps humanly impossible) for any person to "help the congregation from being misled". Again, I have to ask whether these four points are anomalies, or are they "par for the course" in this pastor's teaching? Also, is the congregation full of folks who are searching the Scriptures for themselves (ala the Bereans in Acts 17:11), or full of people who are ignorant of what the Scriptures teach?

[MrBlond]

Perhaps address your concerns to a deacon. They can carry it up the chain without a confrontation with the pastor. I wouldn't tell the congregants unless they come to you personally, to avoid spreading discontent or gossip.

[MountainMike]

To answer the questions posed by Not a Cook and California44, no this was not in the course of one sermon. I have been attending the church for a couple months now and the first 3 happened during my time there (repeatedly though.) I learned of the 4th and verified it as I began into look closer to the pastor's actions. As far as your last question regarding the demographics of the congregation I would have to say it's a mixed bag.

Your second question however implies that these may simply be slips. He does speak biblical truth. Though I find some of his points he raises either half developed or, worst case scenario; intentionally leaving out the logical implications. But remember Satan tempted Jesus with the Word too.

And yes California44, I have prayed over it. While I sought to get a consensus from Christians here I also wanted to maintain a level of anonymity to protect the pastor and the church in the event I am wrong. The last thing I want is to spread dissentious and gossip. This is why I left many of the details out. Any corrective action would have to be from the pastoral staff as I have neither the authority or credibility to address the congregation directly.

Thank you MrBlond for the suggestion. When it is appropriate I will utilize the chain of command and talk with a junior pastor.

And I also want to thank all of you for sharing your thoughts.

[IraCiotog]

To answer the questions posed by Not a Cook and California44, no this was not in the course of one sermon. I have been attending the church for a couple months now and the first 3 happened during my time there (repeatedly though.) I learned of the 4th and verified it as I began into look closer to the pastor's actions. As far as your last question regarding the demographics of the congregation I would have to say it's a mixed bag.

Your second question however implies that these may simply be slips. He does speak biblical truth. Though I find some of his points he raises either half developed or, worst case scenario; intentionally leaving out the logical implications. But remember Satan tempted Jesus with the Word too.

And yes California44, I have prayed over it. While I sought to get a consensus from Christians here I also wanted to maintain a level of anonymity to protect the pastor and the church in the event I am wrong. The last thing I want is to spread dissentious and gossip. This is why I left many of the details out. Any corrective action would have to be from the pastoral staff as I have neither the authority or credibility to address the congregation directly.

Thank you MrBlond for the suggestion. When it is appropriate I will utilize the chain of command and talk with a junior pastor.

And I also want to thank all of you for sharing your thoughts.

Please leave this church immediately. It is not good for you and quite frankly you are not good for it. You and the pastor obviously believe differently. You will not be happy there. You will also sow the seeds of dissent if you stay. Let me share with you some hard earned wisdom. I have never sat in church in a spirit of criticism and judgement and not found something amiss in the sermon. I have also never sat in church in a spirit of openness and humility and not found some bit of wisdom to take away with me.

One more bit of wisdom. Right and wrong are difficult concepts. If you think that you are right then you are probably not asking hard enough questions. Also marriage has taught me that when I am the most right, I am generally the least loving. May God lead you into all Truth which is to say may God lead you into Jesus who is Truth.

[CaliforniaLiberal]

Now that right there is some Certified Honest to God Wisdom.

Also, that bit about when you are the most Right, you are the least Loving, that applies to all interactions with your fellow man, not just in a Marriage.

As also the bit about listening with a spirit of openness and humility and finding wisdom in the one you disagree with.