The Fall, Man and Sin

[Lineman101]

This was posted by texan-
the soul who sins shall die.But it is not the spiritual that is first

[Darto]

Nothing more evil than a toddler. Everything is "Mine", grab grab toys from all other children. No morality or any sense of it. They have to be taught. Untaught, in the wild they will grow up unchanged from that original state, and run around like wolves. They are born in sin. Can there be any doubt?

Parents teach children to share, to be civilized. Absent that teaching from parents or society, left on their own, they will remain the worst of sinners all their lives.

I do not believe the left wing theory that everyone is naturally good, unless corrupted by society, and that American society and institutions are evil.

Actually American society and institutions are a whole lot more moral and in a 'saved' state, than a person living free in the natural state and free of societal and institutional influences.

That is why salvation is necessary. It is called original sin. Children are born in sin. Clearly!

[California44]

I would ask my pastor and not fellow calgunners (no offense intended). These threads tend to go badly.

[WASR10]

“You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you.” -Ezekiel 28:15

I hope my thoughts on the subject do not create a negative atmosphere in this thread. I believe the idea that we are born already guilty of sin contradicts the teachings of scripture. I also find it contradictory to the idea of free will or ‘free moral agency’ of man. I believe the Bible teaches that it is only when we allow temptation to cause us to transgress that we sin against God.

“But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.” – James 1:14-15

Scripture says sin is transgression - an act. The Bible doesn't describe it as an inheritable trait. I wouldn't think a person can inherit the act of stealing, or gossip, or fornication. It therefore seems people choose to act; and sin is accomplished as a result of that choice.

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned” – Romans 5:12

This verse explains how sin entered the world. Adam and Eve made sin possible with the knowledge of good and evil. That knowledge was passed on to all humanity.

“Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.” - Deuteronomy 1:39

Until a certain age, children have no accountable concept of right and wrong. This is why we spend a good deal of their upbringing teaching them.

“So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.” – Romans 14:12

The Bible says that one can only be lost for his or her own sins; God will hold you responsible only for your own actions.

“But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.” – Isaiah 59:2

When people allow sin and iniquity into their lives, it is then that they separate themselves from God. Sin takes place when man chooses not to be obedient to God’s will.

The word “reconcile” means “to bring back into harmony.” If an infant is born with sin, he can’t be reconciled because he was never in harmony with the Lord in the first place. That idea would contradict this verse.

“…namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” – 2 Corinthians 5:19-20

We are separated by our sin and need reconciliation.

“But Jesus said, ‘Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.’”- Matthew 19:14

Rather than condemning little children as sinners, Jesus commends them as examples of innocence, to whom belong the kingdom of heaven. Even though children are born into a world of sin, they are innocent.

“But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”– 2 Samuel 12:23

In speaking of his deceased baby, David knew his child was in a safe condition. He was guilty of no sin, for he had not transgressed God's law.

Regardless of whether we are born with sin or not we still require atonement for our own, so the urgency for the remittance of sin remains the same. I don't see a description of us as born depraved in the Bible, rather I see the scriptures describing us as flesh that is weak. Jesus told the apostles in the Garden of Gethsemane:

“Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” - Matthew 26:41

Thanks for reading.

[Just Dave]

This was posted by texan-
the soul who sins shall die.But it is not the spiritual that is first

Which Psalm of David are you talking about?

As far as sin goes we are born into a sin nature therefore given enough time we will eventually sin.

As far as the passage in Ezekiel goes the Hebrews were holding the offspring accountable for their fathers sin, God says that this isn't so and shouldn't be done.

[texan]

perhaps I should clarify what to me is the only rationally causal chain which can exist within biblical teachings given the scripture I've read.

1) God creates for you a soul
2) God is good and so are all his creations, therefore your soul starts out good and uncorrupted
3) Your flesh and blood nature, however, leads to temptation
4) Given enough time and free will to choose, sinful action is inevitable
5) Your free will to engage in this action leads to your and only your damnation (for if another's action could damn your soul you would be robbed of the will behind that action)
6) Atonement for these sins has been built into our world through the sacrifice of Christ since the time of his death
7) That atonement by extension excuses the very nature of the flesh and blood you if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior

If your soul was instead corrupt and damned at the time of your beginning, God has done this and would not be the one of the Bible. Further, sin is action, undertaking such action is what damns the otherwise good and clear soul. However simple action is not enough to constitute sin, one must understand the actions they take as being sinful yet undertake them anyway. Therefore both action and moral agency are required for something to be considered a sin, yet the latter doesn't exist in you at the time of your birth or anywhere near it.

Thus children aren't born damned, your soul will not be damned for the actions of another and your soul is always yours to redeem.

[texan]

Which Psalm of David are you talking about?

As far as sin goes we are born into a sin nature therefore given enough time we will eventually sin.

As far as the passage in Ezekiel goes the Hebrews were holding the offspring accountable for their fathers sin, God says that this isn't so and shouldn't be done.

He specifically drew attention to Psalm 51:5, which I believe isn't to be taken as literal description of every person's entrance into this world. It is after all Psalms.

[hasserl]

-Ezekiel 28:15James 1:14-15

Scripture says sin is transgression - an act. The Bible doesn't describe it as an inheritable trait. I wouldn't think a person can inherit the act of stealing, or gossip, or fornication. It therefore seems people choose to act; and sin is accomplished as a result of that choice.

Romans 5:12

This verse explains how sin entered the world. Adam and Eve made sin possible with the knowledge of good and evil. That knowledge was passed on to all humanity.

- Deuteronomy 1:39

Until a certain age, children have no accountable concept of right and wrong. This is why we spend a good deal of their upbringing teaching them.

Romans 14:12

The Bible says that one can only be lost for his or her own sins; God will hold you responsible only for your own actions.

Isaiah 59:22 Corinthians 5:19-20

We are separated by our sin and need reconciliation.

- Matthew 19:14

Rather than condemning little children as sinners, Jesus commends them as examples of innocence, to whom belong the kingdom of heaven. Even though children are born into a world of sin, they are innocent.

2 Samuel 12:23

In speaking of his deceased baby, David knew his child was in a safe condition. He was guilty of no sin, for he had not transgressed God's law.

Regardless of whether we are born with sin or not we still require atonement for our own, so the urgency for the remittance of sin remains the same. I don't see a description of us as born depraved in the Bible, rather I see the scriptures describing us as flesh that is weak. Jesus told the apostles in the Garden of Gethsemane:

- Matthew 26:41

Thanks for reading.

This is a nice example of why we should not take scriptures out of context, and why we need to compare scripture to scripture to best understand them.

Men are not sinners because they sin, they sin because they are sinners. Sin is a condition. It is a condition we are born with, and we will be infected with this condition all of our lives, to our dying day.

This is the danger of looking at individual acts and enumerating which are sins and which are not. This is the fallacy that OT Israel fell into, with their hundreds of laws to be followed, that Christ criticized them for. All acts are sin, unless they are done in Christ, and then they are not us doing them but Christ through us, lest any man should boast of his good works.

[WASR10]

This is a nice example of why we should not take scriptures out of context, and why we need to compare scripture to scripture to best understand them.

Men are not sinners because they sin, they sin because they are sinners. Sin is a condition. It is a condition we are born with, and we will be infected with this condition all of our lives, to our dying day.

This is the danger of looking at individual acts and enumerating which are sins and which are not. This is the fallacy that OT Israel fell into, with their hundreds of laws to be followed, that Christ criticized them for. All acts are sin, unless they are done in Christ, and then they are not us doing them but Christ through us, lest any man should boast of his good works.

Could you point me toward the scriptures that refer to sin as a condition, a condition we are born with? I feel I need further study that.

[Lineman101]

Romans 5-
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin

[hasserl]

Could you point me toward the scriptures that refer to sin as a condition, a condition we are born with? I feel I need further study that.

So you want me to post a list of verses, all out of context, and go against my own advice about not pulling scripture out of context?

The entirety of scriptures tell us that we are fallen creatures, whose nature is corrupted, who are unable on our own to do anything but sin.

Here is an article on Total Depravity that goes into this concept, note it does contain links to scripture references that might help you. It is written from a Calvinist position, which I am not of, but I think it does a decent job on this topic: http://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html

Then I would point you to this from the Lutheran reformers of the 1500's, originally written in German and translated here in English. This is from the Formula of Concord, one of the founding documents of Lutheran reformation theology, and part of the Lutheran Confessions, or "statements of faith", i.e. what they belief teach and confess. This is hearty stuff: http://bookofconcord.org/sd-originalsin.php Note it also contains links to passages.

Here is another article I found on the topic, this one is from an Evangelical perspective: http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/sin/

And finally I leave this link to a part of CFW Walther's "The Proper Distinction of Law and Gospel", from 1885. Walther was an early theologian of what eventually became the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, the 2nd largest Lutheran church body in the US, maybe the world. Since it was written over a hundred years ago, originally in German and translated to English, it's a little harder reading, the language is not modern. Outside of Roman Catholicism we don't typically talk about Mortal & Venial sins, as he does here. http://lutherantheology.com/uploads/...ecture-31.html

While there are a lot of things that different Christian church bodies disagree on, the sinful condition of man is not one of them. It is pretty universally agreed on that that is the summarization of what the entirety of holy scriptures teaches.

[colossians323]

Nothing more evil than a toddler. Everything is "Mine", grab grab toys from all other children. No morality or any sense of it. They have to be taught. Untaught, in the wild they will grow up unchanged from that original state, and run around like wolves. They are born in sin. Can there be any doubt?

Parents teach children to share, to be civilized. Absent that teaching from parents or society, left on their own, they will remain the worst of sinners all their lives.

I do not believe the left wing theory that everyone is naturally good, unless corrupted by society, and that American society and institutions are evil.

Actually American society and institutions are a whole lot more moral and in a 'saved' state, than a person living free in the natural state and free of societal and institutional influences.

That is why salvation is necessary. It is called original sin. Children are born in sin. Clearly!

Exactly! Being a parent magnifies 'born into sin'

[colossians323]

Romans 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[colossians323]

Psalm 51

1 Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness;
According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions,
And my sin is ever before me.
4 Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.
7 Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness,
Let the bones which You have broken rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins
And blot out all my iniquities.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners will be converted to You.

14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.
16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

18 By Your favor do good to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.

[colossians323]

Romans 5

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.