Rapture believers- pre/mid/post, and why?

[RAMCLAP]

I'm gonna look at the math further, but one problem I see, is the 360 day year. Additionally, Cyrus was the one God said would re-build Jerusalem. Anyway, the seven weeks of years is I see, 7 Jubilee times. Each Jubilee occuring every 70th year. Ultimately pointing to Jesus and the final Jubilee year fulfilled at the Passion, when He destroyed the work of the devil. This is when our Lord set free His people.

The prophecy as I remember says after 69 weeks the Messiah would be cut off. Does not that put Jesus in the 70th week and also the cruxifiction?

Yes it does.

[Not a Cook]

I'm gonna look at the math further, but one problem I see, is the 360 day year. Additionally, Cyrus was the one God said would re-build Jerusalem. Anyway, the seven weeks of years is I see, 7 Jubilee times. Each Jubilee occuring every 70th year. Ultimately pointing to Jesus and the final Jubilee year fulfilled at the Passion, when He destroyed the work of the devil. This is when our Lord set free His people.

The prophecy as I remember says after 69 weeks the Messiah would be cut off. Does not that put Jesus in the 70th week and also the cruxifiction?

In a word, "no". First, there is a pause between the end of the 69th "seven" and the beginning of the last remaining "seven". That is, the 70th "seven" did not begin immediately upon the end of the 69th "seven". Note that Daniel 9:26 says that Christ would be cut off after the 69th "seven" (and so He was, as the fulfillment of the 69th "seven" was on Palm Sunday when He came as "Messiah the Prince"), but that it does not say He would be cut-off during the 70th "seven". There is a time period in between (a "pause", if you will), but the Scriptures do not indicate the exact duration of this "pause" between the end of the 69th "seven" and the beginning of the last "seven". It is similar to the pause that we see our Lord bring up in Luke 4:16-21 where Christ seemingly stopped mid-verse in the quote from Isaiah, because He was at that time fulfilling the first portion of the verse, and would not be fulfilling the latter portion of the verse until His return.

The years used in the prophecy are the ancient world's (Hebraic, Babylonian, etc.) 360-day years. 69 "sevens" X 7 years per "seven" X 360 days per year = 173,880 days. Historically, the dates were fulfilled precisely. The decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was issued by Artaxerxes on March 14, 445 B.C. Christ's "triumphal entry" into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday (when the people of Jerusalem hailed Him as "Messiah the Prince") occurred April 6, 32 A.D. The calculation can be somewhat difficult, as adjustments have to be made for the changes to the Gregorian calendar, no year "0", etc., but it is precise and EXTREMELY well documented. Koinonia House has some in-depth studies on the topic, and here is a link to one of their very basic pages on this prophecy: http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/552/

For ease of further discussion, I will copy and paste the Daniel 9:24-27 (NKJV) below,

24 “Seventy weeks[a] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[b] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street[c] shall be built again, and the wall,[d]
Even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

The historical fulfillment of the the first 69 "sevens" prophecy is one of the many prophecies that Christ fulfilled during His first advent, and this particular prophecy is one that often shuts the mouths of those that attempt to discredit prophecy due to how precise and how well documented the fulfillment actually is.

[Lineman101]

Regarding the 70 weeks, there is no reason to posit a "pause" in verse 26. That pause must be inserted to make the math fit. Without assuming a 360 day year and a pause, the argument, in my humble opinion, falls apart. The last time I checked, a year was 365.25 days. I can see that Missler is doing his best to make the math fit, but 360 days is not equal to 365.25 days. Additionally, there is nothing in the verse to posit a 2000+ year pause.

Isaiah 45:13
I will stir up Cyrus and help him win his battles.
I will make all of his roads straight.
He will rebuild Jerusalem.

[Not a Cook]

Regarding the 70 weeks, there is no reason to posit a "pause" in verse 26. That pause must be inserted to make the math fit. Without assuming a 360 day year and a pause, the argument, in my humble opinion, falls apart. The last time I checked, a year was 365.25 days. I can see that Missler is doing his best to make the math fit, but 360 days is not equal to 365.25 days. Additionally, there is nothing in the verse to posit a 2000+ year pause.

Isaiah 45:13
I will stir up Cyrus and help him win his battles.
I will make all of his roads straight.
He will rebuild Jerusalem.
My people have been taken away from their country.
But he will set them free.
I will not pay him to do it.
He will not receive a reward for it,”
says the Lord who rules over all. (ESV emphasis mine)

Missler says Artaxerxes, God says Cyrus. You can make the choice. If my memory serves me right, the command from Cyrus was about 100+ years before Artaxerxes (around 536 BCE)

I still stand by the fact that the math must be twisted to make the time fit. I stand by the fact that Cyrus was to give the command and not Artaxerxes. I still stand by what is being communicated is that Christ is in the 70th week when He was crucified. Christ's Passion thus completes 7 Jubilee periods. With Christ's death and Resurrection, His people have been released from their slavery. We are no longer slaves to sin. We have been set free! So the 70 weeks is theological and not chronological.

In addition, the skeptics of Christ use the Olivet discourse to discredit Christ, because he didn't return in that generation like He said He would.

The math is not "twisted to make the time fit", nor is this interpretation unique to Missler or myself - it is held by many Christians and supported by both the Scriptures and secular history.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say regarding the 360-day calendar years. At the time Daniel was written both the Hebrews and Babylonians were using a 360-day calendar. So was most (if not all) of the ancient world at that time still using a 360-day calendar. That's why we use the 360-day calendar when computing the 69 "sevens", or 483 years, to be 173,880 days.

Regarding Cyrus: yes - he is named in Isaiah and I absolutely agree that Cyrus fulfilled that prophecy. However, bringing up Isaiah 45:13 in a discussion of Daniel 9 is a red herring. There are actually FOUR different commands to rebuild Jerusalem recorded in history. Cyrus' decree was the first, but it was not the only, such command. Both the Scriptures and secular history record that the wall of Jerusalem was not rebuilt under Cyrus' decree. Please note that Cyrus is not named in Daniel 9 and his decree to rebuild the temple did not fulfill Daniel 9:25 (NKJV) quoted here,
“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street[c] shall be built again, and the wall,[d]
Even in troublesome times.
I bolded the reference to the wall because the wall of Jerusalem wasn't rebuilt from Cyrus' decree. Instead, from history we know that the wall wasn't rebuilt until Artaxerxes' decree in 445 B.C. Remember that the rebuilding of the wall is recorded in the book of Nehemiah, which is (as Nehemiah says) during the reign of Artaxerxes and upon the decree of Artaxerxes (ref. Nehemiah 2:7-8). It was Artaxerxes' decree that fulfilled the prophecy of Daniel 9:25, not Cyrus' decree. The wall was rebuilt under Artaxerxes - over 100 years AFTER Cyrus' decree (this is recorded both in the Bible and in secular history). This is not at odds with Isaiah 45:13 in the least. Isaiah 45:13 has nothing to do with Daniel 9... the wall was rebuilt per Artaxerxes' decree. This doesn't violate Scripture. However, to try to INSIST that Isaiah 45:13 is the key to Daniel 9 is wrong for a simple reason - the wall wasn't rebuilt at Cyrus' decree, and Daniel 9:25 specifically requires that the wall be rebuilt.

Regarding the "pause" between the end of the 69th "seven" and the beginning of the 70th "seven": yes, there is reason to posit the "pause". First, consider again Luke 4:16-21. In reading from the scroll of Isaiah, the Lord stopped in the MIDDLE of what we refer to as Isaiah 61:2. He did not finish reading the verse in the synagogue, because the rest of the verse discusses "the day of vengeance of our God". If you simply read Isaiah 61 straight-through, it seems as if the day of the Lord immediately commences, but it doesn't (and still hasn't!). The "day of vengeance of our God" is prophesied all over the Scriptures, and hasn't yet taken place. Christ stopped mid-verse in Isaiah 61:2 because He only fulfilled the first part at His first advent; the second part ("the day of vengeance of our God") won't be fulfilled until His return. That said, just because the prophecy doesn't say "PAUSE", doesn't mean one isn't there - either in Isaiah 61:2 or in Daniel 9:26-27. Now, let's consider again Daniel 9:26-27 (NKJV),
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

Notice that, in the quote above, Messiah is cut off AFTER the 69th "seven" (the original "seven" plus sixty-two "sevens"), and the covenant which involves the last "seven" doesn't happen until verse 27. In between, "stuff" happens (I've underlined this "stuff"). Specifically, the Messiah is "cut off", the "people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary". Christ was crucified during this "pause"... Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed during this pause... We're living in the same "pause" during which Christ was crucified and the temple was destroyed also occurred. The covenant mentioned in verse 27 that marks the final "seven" hasn't happened yet. We haven't yet made it to verse 27, we haven't yet made it to the covenant. Daniel 9:27 has not yet been fulfilled.

[Not a Cook]

I pretty much grew up with that interpretation you used. However, a look in a concordance regarding the word "week" or a "seven" finds that it can refer to a literal "year". Since the word week, or a seven, can refer to the "Feast of Weeks", which is 7 weeks long. The feast from Passover to Pentacost.
So, in that verse, there is a possibility it is being used euphamistically for a year. I am stating a possibilty only, just another view of things.

The original word translates directly as "seven". The Scriptures do not specify seven WHAT.

However, the fact that Christ entered Jerusalem as "Messiah the Prince" (ref. Daniel 9:25 and His entry on Palm Sunday) exactly 483 years (the 69 "sevens" of Daniel 9, calculated as 69 "sevens" of seven years each with 360-day calendars for a total of 173,880 days) to the day after Artaxerxes' decree to rebuild Jerusalem (including its wall) in fulfillment of Daniel 9:25 is pretty amazing evidence that the "sevens" are groups of seven years. That is why in Luke 19:40 Christ told the Pharisees that if the disciples didn't cry out, the very stones would. It was to fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 9:25. Christ had to be received as "Messiah the Prince" on April 6, 32 A.D. - the date we commonly refer to as "Palm Sunday" or "The Triumphal Entry".

[Lineman101]

Hi Cook,
I see that you did a lot of responding. I plan on responding to your points. I just wanted to quickly respond to the part about the calendar. While it is true that the Hebrews held to a calendar of 360 days generally due to lunar cycles, the Hebrews also added an additional month, or 13th month, to the calendar every 19 years. This month was known as Second Adar. Does the calculation take into account this 13th month every 19 years?

[Lineman101]

26 After those 62 weeks[g]
the Messiah will be cut off
and will have nothing.
The people of the coming prince
will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The[h] end will come with a flood,
and until the end there will be[i] war;
desolations are decreed. (HCSB)

I would point out that Titus and Vespasian are seen in this verse. After all, Titus and Vespasian sacked the Temple and burned it to the ground. The Temple did come to and end like a flood. In addition, the end of the Temple age ceased with the New Covenant that Jesus instituted.

[Not a Cook]

Hi Cook,
I see that you did a lot of responding. I plan on responding to your points. I just wanted to quickly respond to the part about the calendar. While it is true that the Hebrews held to a calendar of 360 days generally due to lunar cycles, the Hebrews also added an additional month, or 13th month, to the calendar every 19 years. This month was known as Second Adar. Does the calculation take into account this 13th month every 19 years?

Hi Lineman101... wow, this is getting in-depth! In short, "no, it dosen't need to". If memory serves me correctly, the Hebrew/Jewish calendar year has been modified over the years. Second Adar wasn't originally in the Hebrew calendar but has been subsequently added, but that adding-in isn't relevant to the Daniel 9 prophecy. As an aside, just about every ancient culture was forced to modify their calendars due to the discrepancy between the lunar-cycle calendar and the solar-cycle calendar which only occurred post-Flood. Here's a brief link to an ICR that, although it doesn't deal directly with your topic, it merely brings up the bigger related issue - http://www.icr.org/article/calendar-antiquity-genesis/. I've got to run, but I'll see if I can find an online link regarding Adar II later. I have a feeling it might be hard to find info. on this topic online, but I'll try. Sorry... have to run for now.

[Not a Cook]

Actually the Bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. So it really is authored by God. That's why it is called God's word.

^
Amen! I hoped that was how my comment would be understood... just in case anyone didn't understand it that way, thank you cabdmd for making it more clear!

[badinage]

Actually the Bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. So it really is authored by God. That's why it is called God's word.

the gnostic gospels are all written the same way, by men, under the Spirit

its important to educate and learn just how and why certain things are in "the bible" and certain things written at the same time are not

that decision, the editing of the bible, is worth learning about in order to understand how what you have been exposed to is not all that was written by men under the "holy spirit", very few people even understand how far off the western culture King James version that they think of as "the bible" is

[Not a Cook]

the gnostic gospels are all written the same way, by men, under the Spirit

its important to educate and learn just how and why certain things are in "the bible" and certain things written at the same time are not

that decision, the editing of the bible, is worth learning about in order to understand how what you have been exposed to is not all that was written by men under the "holy spirit", very few people even understand how far off the western culture King James version that they think of as "the bible" is

Ummm... a couple of points:
1.) I'll be blunt- the gnostics were heretics, plain and simple. They were not Christians. The so-called gnostic "gospels" are drivel and were never considered candidates for the Bible. I've studied the canonization process, and there is great reason why the so-called gnostic "gospels" were not included in the Scriptures. If you're a neo-gnostic, you need to read the Bible and learn who Christ actually is and why He came. If you deny His physical death, physical burial, physical resurrection, and physical ascension, you deny the true gospel of Jesus Christ and you are not a Christian. For anyone who is curious, feel free to check out this short article that briefly explains WHY the gnostic heresy is heresy: http://brodennisthescriptorium.blogs...spels.html?m=1.

2.). This thread had absolutely NOTHING to do with gnosticism. I know you're new here, but please try to stay on topic and not pointlessly divert threads. I've noticed this is the second thread in which you have done this.

[Not a Cook]

Hi Lineman101... wow, this is getting in-depth! In short, "no, it dosen't need to". If memory serves me correctly, the Hebrew/Jewish calendar year has been modified over the years. Second Adar wasn't originally in the Hebrew calendar but has been subsequently added, but that adding-in isn't relevant to the Daniel 9 prophecy. As an aside, just about every ancient culture was forced to modify their calendars due to the discrepancy between the lunar-cycle calendar and the solar-cycle calendar which only occurred post-Flood. Here's a brief link to an ICR that, although it doesn't deal directly with your topic, it merely brings up the bigger related issue - http://www.icr.org/article/calendar-antiquity-genesis/. I've got to run, but I'll see if I can find an online link regarding Adar II later. I have a feeling it might be hard to find info. on this topic online, but I'll try. Sorry... have to run for now.

Okay... As I suspected, this doesn't seem to be an easy topic to locate relevant information about online, and then post relevant links here.

That said, here goes my very limited attempt at explanation (if I do a poor job explaining it, blame me, not Mr. Missler or someone else): the Hebrew calendar appears to have originally been a 360-day calendar, as was the calendar of virtually all ancient civilizations. The brief ICR article above broaches the subject as to why this 360-day calendar was used throughout the ancient world. In brief, it appears the lunar and solar cycles were in sync with each other pre-Flood. Post-Flood, the lunar and solar cycles were no longer perfectly in sync. This led to the need for intercalation of the calendars to reconcile the differences between the lunar cycle year and the now-altered solar cycle year. In time (it appears to have been after Artaxerxes' decree which started the proverbial clock ticking on the 69 "sevens" of Daniel 9) the Sanhedrin took the lead and began reckoning/decreeing the method and time of intercalation. However, the intercalation which is used in to day's Jewish calendar with Adar II is based upon work proposed by Meton in about 432 B.C. (ref. http://www.infoplease.com/encycloped...-calendar.html and post-dates Daniel). Thus, this intercalation using Adar II did not start until AFTER the prophecy of Daniel 9 was given. This also places it AFTER Artaxerxes' decree. Combined (with a whole lot more info. I'm not going to type via phone) this means that intercalation and Adar II were not even part of the ancient Hebrew calendar, and thus do not play a part in this prophecy. It is based on the ancient 360-day calendar, not the newer soli-lunar calendars. The modern Jewish calendar bears witness that many changes happened to the ancient Hebrew calendar during and after the Babylonian captivity. The most obvious change is that the months acquired Babylonian names, but intercalation is another such change. Long story short, it's a big topic, but the bottom line is that the 360-day calendar is applicable to the discussion of biblical prophecy, not the latter soli-lunar calendars such as the one we currently use.

[RAMCLAP]

26 After those 62 weeks[g]
the Messiah will be cut off
and will have nothing.
The people of the coming prince
will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The[h] end will come with a flood,
and until the end there will be[i] war;
desolations are decreed. (HCSB)

I would point out that Titus and Vespasian are seen in this verse. After all, Titus and Vespasian sacked the Temple and burned it to the ground. The Temple did come to and end like a flood. In addition, the end of the Temple age ceased with the New Covenant that Jesus instituted.

Couldn't have said it better.

[Sailormilan2]

Okay... As I suspected, this doesn't seem to be an easy topic to locate relevant information about online, and then post relevant links here.

That said, here goes my very limited attempt at explanation (if I do a poor job explaining it, blame me, not Mr. Missler or someone else): the Hebrew calendar appears to have originally been a 360-day calendar, as was the calendar of virtually all ancient civilizations. The brief ICR article above broaches the subject as to why this 360-day calendar was used throughout the ancient world. In brief, it appears the lunar and solar cycles were in sync with each other pre-Flood. Post-Flood, the lunar and solar cycles were no longer perfectly in sync. This led to the need for intercalation of the calendars to reconcile the differences between the lunar cycle year and the now-altered solar cycle year. In time (it appears to have been after Artaxerxes' decree which started the proverbial clock ticking on the 69 "sevens" of Daniel 9) the Sanhedrin took the lead and began reckoning/decreeing the method and time of intercalation. However, the intercalation which is used in to day's Jewish calendar with Adar II is based upon work proposed by Meton in about 432 B.C. (ref. http://www.infoplease.com/encycloped...-calendar.html and post-dates Daniel). Thus, this intercalation using Adar II did not start until AFTER the prophecy of Daniel 9 was given. This also places it AFTER Artaxerxes' decree. Combined (with a whole lot more info. I'm not going to type via phone) this means that intercalation and Adar II were not even part of the ancient Hebrew calendar, and thus do not play a part in this prophecy. It is based on the ancient 360-day calendar, not the newer soli-lunar calendars. The modern Jewish calendar bears witness that many changes happened to the ancient Hebrew calendar during and after the Babylonian captivity. The most obvious change is that the months acquired Babylonian names, but intercalation is another such change. Long story short, it's a big topic, but the bottom line is that the 360-day calendar is applicable to the discussion of biblical prophecy, not the latter soli-lunar calendars such as the one we currently use.

While I agree with part of this, the article I read regarding the 360 day year and the change, placed the change when the sundial moved back 10 degrees when Hezekiah was king, which was around 700 BC. I have been told, meaning I did not read it in that article, that up until then all the worlds calendars were on a 360 day year, and within 20 years of the event they were all on a 365 day year. Yet the prophecies of Daniel and Revelations are all based on a 360 day year. So, I am wondering if God is going to reset the "clock" sometime before the "end".

Linky to article on 360 vs 365

http://xwalk.ca/360vs365.html

[Not a Cook]

While I agree with part of this, the article I read regarding the 360 day year and the change, placed the change when the sundial moved back 10 degrees when Hezekiah was king, which was around 700 BC. I have been told, meaning I did not read it in that article, that up until then all the worlds calendars were on a 360 day year, and within 20 years of the event they were all on a 365 day year. Yet the prophecies of Daniel and Revelations are all based on a 360 day year. So, I am wondering if God is going to reset the "clock" sometime before the "end".

Linky to article on 360 vs 365

http://xwalk.ca/360vs365.html

Very interesting link... I'm going to have to look into more carefully. Thanks for posting it!

The bottom line for the overall question asked by Lineman101 is that the "years" used in biblical prophecies all appear to be 360-day calendar years, in line with what appears to have been the "original" calendar used since creation week.