Is Belief in a creator God compatible with evolutionary Naturalism?

[Badmusic]

Belief in God as Creator presupposes supernatural means.

Naturalism is the belief that nothing exists outside of nature.

Evolution is the belief that life and it's speciation occurred by natural means.

Therefore, it is irrational to make the claim "God created life through Evolutionary processes".

Discuss.

[mif_slim]

Cosmological, teleological, ontological and moral arguments accepted?

[Badmusic]

Cosmological, teleological, ontological and moral arguments accepted?

My criteria is based on the ontological nature of God, The teleology of cosmology, and assumes the absolute nature of the axiological.


Be careful though, teleological and cosmological arguments (for compatibility) presuppose the truth of Naturalism, and will be rationally defeated.

[mif_slim]

Yes, that is why I brought it up.. I'll post my thoughts when I'm more free.. extremely busy for a well written reply.

[Badmusic]

To all respondents... please understand that I am not able to respond directly to every argument... I will do what I can of course...but my intent here is to stir up discussion between self proclaimed Christians who believe in Evolution, and self proclaimed Christians who don't. In case it is not clear, my argument suggests belief in Evolution is contradictory to belief in a creator God, and the twain shall not rationally meet.

[Magazineman]

Why not? I see no reason why Evolution could not have been set in motion by a god.
Arguments against that being the case would be that God never existed,
Or that Evolution is not compatible with The Bible.

But I see Biblical Compatibility as having nothing to do with what a god (or God) could do.

[Badmusic]

Why not? I see no reason why Evolution could not have been set in motion by a god.
Arguments against that being the case would be that God never existed,
Or that Evolution is not compatible with The Bible.

But I see Biblical Compatibility as having nothing to do with what a god (or God) could do.

Why not? Well, for beginners, Evolution is a belief based in Naturalism, which precludes belief in the supernatural. This was the basis of my OP. When one says something to the effect of "God used evolution to create..." one is essentially saying "God used a process which precludes himself from the process", and that, is Logically impossible. It's like saying He can make a rock that He cannot make. God can accomplish the improbable, true, and He can even accomplish that which is supernatural, or appears 'miraculous' to us, but not even God can accomplish that which presupposes God was not involved. The Bible has nothing to do with the question I am posing. Do you see now what I am getting at? Hope that was more clear.

The concept of Evolution precludes the involvement of God, and therefore, the ideas cannot be compatible. There is no middle-ground between 'creation', and 'evolution', they are exclusive. One must choose belief in either, but not both. The law of the excluded middle demands it.

[colossians323]

Belief in God as Creator presupposes supernatural means.

Naturalism is the belief that nothing exists outside of nature.

Evolution is the belief that life and it's speciation occurred by natural means.

Therefore, it is irrational to make the claim "God created life through Evolutionary processes".

Discuss.

Not really much to discuss, Either God created it and it was good, or God created it and evolution had to perfect it. Did evolution perfect it? Will since God completed His creation, He did not need help from any false outside processes

[Magazineman]

I know exactly what evolution is, but do not know what this "naturalism" is.
If it's a belief that there is absolutly no God / gods (atheism) then yes, belief in God is incompatible with that. Of course.

But since no living human (sorry, guys) knows for certain if there is or is not a God, the best guess is as follows: There MAY be a God or gods which may exist alongside the evolutionary process. If any.

[Badmusic]

Not really much to discuss, Either God created it and it was good, or God created it and evolution had to perfect it. Did evolution perfect it? Will since God completed His creation, He did not help from any false outside processes

Not much to discuss colossians323, because you agree with me. However, many Christians do not. It is with them whom I seek discussion.

[Badmusic]

I know exactly what evolution is, but do not know what this "naturalism" is.
If it's a belief that there is absolutly no God / gods (atheism) then yes, belief in God is incompatible with that. Of course.

But since no living human (sorry, guys) knows for certain if there is or is not a God, the best guess is as follows: There MAY be a God or gods which may exist alongside the evolutionary process. If any.

"Naturalism" is the belief that nothing exists outside of nature. I defined that for you in the parameters of my argument. Certainly, you would be and are correct to say that no one has empirical proof of the existence or non-existence of God, (as you have stated) One can with absolute certainty, defend the more rational choice between the two options. The irrationality of the evolutionary/naturalism position is evident, when juxtaposed with the alternative.

Now, if you wish to re-define "Naturalism", we would have to have a different discussion than I have proposed here.

[Handelfan]

I disagree with the premise.

"Evolution", by definition, is a belief that things have evolved to the state they are currently in. As a word, it means no more, no less. This "naturalism" you talk about isn't necessarily a hallmark of believing in evolution - that is, you could believe in an evolutionary process without believing that nothing exists outside of nature. For someone that believes God began an evolutionary process, what else would you call it, if you are ruling out the term "evolution"?

When we build a campfire, we collect the materials, set them up, and light the spark. Yes, the wood then burns and becomes ash on it's own, spewing smoke seemingly on its own, gives off warmth, but only does so because we set those events in motion. Someone passing by would not assume that the fire had started itself.

There is a book called "The Science of God" by Gerhard Schroeder, a man with the unique position of being both a scholar of the Torah (he is Jewish), and also an astrophysicist. He puts forth a theory based on relativity, contrasting "cosmological" (universe) time with "local" Earth time - that the universe could be created in 6 literal days from one perspective, while literally passing 15 billion years in another. It's really an interesting read.

Now, all that being said, I'm not just throwing by theological beliefs into that basket. Actually, when it comes down to it, for a Christian, how the Earth was created is not actually the essential doctrine.

[Badmusic]

I disagree with the premise.

"Evolution", by definition, is a belief that things have evolved to the state they are currently in...

This is meaningless.

For someone that believes God began an evolutionary process, what else would you call it, if you are ruling out the term "evolution"?

I didn't rule out the term "evolution". I pointed out that God does not use processes that don't involve God. Show me how "evolution" allows for God's participation, without it simply becoming part of a "creation" process, then you might have something to say. Until then, I think you have misunderstood what "Evolution" really is, and certainly misunderstood what I am pointing out. If God is directing evolution it ceases to be "evolution", it is now "creation". There are only two choices when it comes to explaining how everything came to be. Either God did it, or God didn't. God did it is called Creation, God didn't do it is called "Evolution" or "naturalism". "Evolution is, and always has been, an attempt to explain reality by NATURAL means. This is why my premise states it this way. Evolution presupposes Naturalism, period.

Carl Sagan, said "The cosmos is all there ever was, is or ever will be".

[Not a Cook]

Not much to discuss colossians323, because you agree with me. However, many Christians do not. It is with them whom I seek discussion.

I believe we agree - believing the Bible to be completely accurate (including the Genesis account of creation) is incompatible with believing evolutionary theory. I believe the Bible is completely accurate and evolutionary theory is simply a demonic lie.

For discussion-sake, here are two major questions I pose to anyone who claims to believe the Bible and yet also believe evolution:

1. For evolution to be compatible with the Genesis record, each day of creation must not be a literal day. Why then does the Genesis record clearly refer to each day as being a literal day ("so the evening and the morning were the XXXXX day")?

2. For evolutionary theory to work, death is necessary. If each day of creation really meant an extended period of time and each "day" involved death of many creatures, then much death must have occurred prior to the fall of man. However, we are told that death is the result of sin, and no death occurred prior to man's sin. Instead, we read multiple times that, "and God saw that it was good" each day God made plants and animals and man. Please explain to me how evolutionary theory can possibly agree with Genesis, given that death didn't occur until after man sinned.

[Whiterabbit]

Is Belief in a creator God compatible with evolutionary Naturalism?

Well, according to this guy named Charles Darwin, yes. They are compatible. Given the source, I am inclined to believe that any evidence that suggests they are not compatible can only stand on grounds of misunderstanding the theory of evolution to begin with.

Personally, also given the source, I see no reason they cannot coexist in the same reality.