Rejection of Sin

[bigmike82]

Suffice it to say, He never condoned immorality.

This is ONLY true if you accept the premise that "whatever God does is moral."

You will find that a very significant portion of official Catholic doctrine is not from the Bible at all, if you take the time to check.

I think this argument is best served by a new thread so I'll leave that alone. Way to wake up the latent militant Catholic of my youth.

[bob7122]

If Heaven is really just being able to hang out with God...then...why? The Jesus portrayed in the Gospel is someone who, in my obviously not humble opinion, is worthy of worship. The god of the old testament? No way.

jesus said that those that know jesus know his father. he said that he himself was just like God so the fact that you like jesus but somehow dislike the god of the old testament is weird. so you need to keep reading and studying the bible, because if jesus himself said he is like his father then you in turn should like God or hate jesus since they are mirror images of each other.



i really don't want to click on the link and i would appreciate it if you would just post the texts but if you don't then i will click the link.

[bigmike82]

Bob:

Here are some of the examples they cite:
Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 20:10-14

That last example is doubly bad because not only rape, but also "if the town makes peace with you, you get to use them as forced labor." Come on, really?

he said that he himself was just like God

He wasn't though. Jesus was generally peaceful (unless you were a money lender that one time), and followed his own preaching. The Old Testament God was a massive, massive jerk (unless you were Israeli, then he was only a slight jerk).

[44fred]

Bigmike82
My God can use anybody to get to you, atheist, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and even Pope Francis. He's using us right now!
I pray you do accept Jesus as your Lord and savior. The alternative is something I would not want "anybody" and I mean "anybody" to experience. There is a saying that says we will be surprised who will and won't be in heaven. I do believe that since all our tears will be washed away, we will begin a perfect life. Not having grandma there would be hard to accept. Having Hitler there would be even harder. I don't think we will know because that would be heartache.
All I know is that I accept the trinity as perfect even though I can't begin to understand perfection.
Good luck in your quest my brother.

[bob7122]

Bob:

Here are some of the examples they cite:
Judges 21:10-24--- read 25
Numbers 31:7-18----i don't see the rape here. please explain it to me. from what i read it spoke of why they had to kill the women who had sex already, because of what they did.
Deuteronomy 20:10-14-----what does this have to do with rape?

That last example is doubly bad because not only rape, but also "if the town makes peace with you, you get to use them as forced labor." Come on, really? Sir, forced labor yes they were enslaved but again you need to read the bible to know how Jews treated their slaves.


He wasn't though. Jesus was generally peaceful (unless you were a money lender that one time), and followed his own preaching. The Old Testament God was a massive, massive jerk (unless you were Israeli, then he was only a slight jerk).

it seems that you have made up your mind that god is evil no matter what people say. i hope you pray to god if you really want to find answers so he helps lift the veil from your eyes. i recommend you stay away from apostates and those who speak out against god. they will only serve to mislead you.

as for one of my earlier posts, jesus and god are one in the same. if you know and love what jesus did then you know and love what god did.- some of the actions that the jews committed in the old testament did not get approval by god; and it says it clearly in writing.
hope it helps sir.

[bigmike82]

read 25

Okay. Not ordered by God, but definitely sanctioned (given the lack of punishment).

i don't see the rape here.

"18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

what does this have to do with rape?

"As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies"

What else does it mean to 'take' a woman? I mean...yeah, footrubs, which are pretty awesome...but I'm pretty sure this wasn't a platonic arrangement.

it seems that you have made up your mind that god is evil no matter what people say

I've made up my mind that the God of the Old Testament has no moral authority to call me a sinner. NOT if he's described accurately.

Here's what I'm curious about. Is there any justification in any moral code that what God ordered in the Old Testament was ok? I don't accept an argument that "anything God does is good". That's a cop out.

Again...in my obviously not humble opinion.

jesus and god are one in the same

I don't see that though. Jesus healed the blind...he healed the sick...he truly preached (well, mostly) about God's love and to not be dicks to each other. The old testament one? Can you imagine Jesus telling people to invade other cities and to take their women? Can you imagine Jesus telling one of his disciples to get his son and sacrifice him on a mountain? I know that theologically (and especially in Catholic doctrine) Jesus and the Father are one entity in three aspects...but damn. That's a tough friggin' thing to accept.

[Not a Cook]

bigmike82 - First of all, sorry for not responding sooner; I haven't had sufficient free time in front of an actual computer screen until now to reply in any detail, and it's too difficult to reply to this post via tiny phone screen. I apologize in advance for not addressing the objections on the site you linked to; it's very late, and I have to get some sleep, so I can't address all those objections tonight. I will, however, address what I believe is the most important part of your previous post. After reading this post, please confirm whether you still want me to address all the objections in the link you posted - I'll be glad to when I'm back in front of a computer with a few spare minutes.

If Heaven is really just being able to hang out with God...then...why? The Jesus portrayed in the Gospel is someone who, in my obviously not humble opinion, is worthy of worship. The god of the old testament? No way..

First off, your quote above is the biggie. I'm glad you said Jesus is worthy of worship... I wholeheartedly agree! Worshipping Him is one of the most important points of life.

Here's an honest question: considering that you've already said that, in your opinion, Jesus is worthy of worship, yet you have issues with God as you perceive Him from the Old Testament scriptures, what would you say if I told you Christ claimed to be the same God as in the Old Testament? Do you still opine that He is worthy of worship? Obviously, I do, and I hope you will too. Here are four passages where Christ claimed to be God:

John 10:24-30 - "24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, 'How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.'

25 Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.[b] 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.' "

John 14:6-11 - "6 Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

7 'If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.'

8 Philip said to Him, 'Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.'

9 Jesus said to him, 'Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.' "


Matthew 19:16-17 - "16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good[e] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?[f] No one is good but One, that is, God.[g] But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Contrary to what some teach, Christ was not saying He is not good... He was leading the rich young ruler to the conclusion that He is God).

John 8:48-59 - "48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, 'Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”

49 Jesus answered, 'I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.'

52 Then the Jews said to Him, 'Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?'

54 Jesus answered, 'If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your[m] God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.'

57 Then the Jews said to Him, 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?'

58 Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.'

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple,[n] going through the midst of them, and so passed by. NOTE: It is important to note that the Jews wanted to stone Christ because they understood His claim to be God, for that's what His saying "I AM" clearly meant in Hebrew terms.


And here is a passage where the apostle Paul addressed the topic (Col. 2:8-10):

"8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power."

Because you think highly enough of Christ to proclaim that you find Him worthy of worship, I assume you would agree that He always speaks the truth. As such, I thought it best to review the passages wherein He Himself claimed to be God. Also, the Colossians passage above is pretty straight-forward.

Also, this verse is very appropriate to review: Hebrews 13:8 - "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Since He claimed to be God, and He does not change and He does not lie, then He must be both the God we see in the New Testament and also the God we see in the Old Testament. If you think you see a different God portrayed in the Old Testament, it must be that you misunderstood the Old Testament. I strongly encourage you to think this over and seriously consider it.

Again, assuming you're still interested, I'd be happy to address the specific objections in the link you previously provided - just let me know!

[colossians323]

Ezekiel 33: 11Joel 2: 13 ... for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness, and He will certainly feel regret on account of the calamity.

Revelation 3: 20 Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears My Voice and opens the door, I will come into his [ house ] and take the evening meal with him and he with Me.

The quotes from the jehovahs witness bible don't do justice to His word.

[RandyD]

Nope. I don't reject God. I reject the notion that the God of the Old Testament has any moral authority to judge things as sinful given the vast amount of murder, rape and slavery that he condoned, ordered and committed.

I apologize for the short answer. I want to spend more time in this thread this evening.


bigmike82, God made this world and everything in it including all mankind. That makes him sovereign over this world and mankind. He makes the rules and we do not. There is a blessing for following his rules, and there is death for not following his rules. He has given each of us a choice, and it is within our own power to make that choice.

Another point I will encourage you to consider. You seem to have an outsider's perspective of God and everything about Him. You can have a completely different perspective if you look at God as being one of His chosen people, and to be part of His chosen people all you have to do is accept his offer.

[bob7122]

The quotes from the jehovahs witness bible don't do justice to His word.

just curious as to what brought you to this conclusion?

it seems fine to me if you compare it to other bibles.

[Bill Carson]

just curious as to what brought you to this conclusion?

it seems fine to me if you compare it to other bibles.

The NWT is not recognized by the rest of the christian community or denominations as an accurate translation. In actuality it is viewed as heresy.

[rackit]

First, I am 50 and was raised in the Catholic Church, weekly catechism, alter boy,confirmation, the whole shebang. I went to church because I was told to, and stopped going to church as soon as I could. My basic problem was that I actually stopped one time during the Apostles Creed to read it and asked myself if I believed what was written. I'm no hypocrite (well mostly) and had no idea where any of the assertions in the creed came from, so how could I believe it? At that time the church said jump, and you said how high, but never any discussion on the why. I was a why person in a culture where you didn't question why, you just did it because the Pope said so. So I did what any young person did at the time and walked away from the church leaving my Mom's rosary beads worn and tattered praying for my return.

In my mid-30's I hit the wall, life was in session and it was a bit too much for me. I was very successful but knew that something was missing. My wife and kids were attending a Protestant church and I started going. I saw a different view from what I grew up with, but I confess (like any good Catholic would) that I thought it was all an act. On top of all of that I felt as if I was betraying the Catholic Church even though I had not been to mass in 20 years. As I progressed my new church family grew on me and were huge supporters. As I dug deeper I found it was not an act. I found sincerity, fellowship, support and above all, I found exactly what I was looking for without knowing it, salvation in Jesus Christ. This wasn't an overnight transformation, it took years, and I'm not done yet.

As to your question, (forgive me if someone else has already quoted this) Romans 7:7 through 7:24 is a great passage where Paul explains the relationship between the law and sin. It is a complicated passage, so you'll have to read it a few times(at least I did) to figure it out (I read several translations), but I think he does a great job in explaining the purpose of the law in relation to sin, and without the law we would have no moral barometer.

I can't possibly answer all of your questions or concerns but faith is the glue that binds all of it together for me. The problem for us "why" people is that faith is not a tangible thing. Heb 11:1 "faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see". Faith is how I accept Isaiah 55:9, that God could be smarter than me, have more information and operating on a completely different level than me. If you haven't read it already, I would recommend the book "A Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel. Objection 4 of his book is "God isn't worthy of worship if he kills innocent children". Lee was an investigative reporter for the Chicago Tribune and an agnostic. It's a good read, PM me your shipping address and I'll buy you one on Amazon.

I commend you for asking the questions, keep asking them, keep seeking.

Take care brother...