Rejection of Sin

[Watchur6]

It depends. Saul rejected the Gospel until Jesus showed Himself to him. The good thing about God is that theres not only one way to salvation....Just like healing the blind men in the Gospel, two with a touch (Matthew 9:27-31), one with spit (Mark 8:22-25), one with word (Mark 10:45-47) and one with mud (John 9). All could have been done the same, but Jesus chose to do it differently.

Awesome! Thank you for reminding me of that.

[Bill Carson]

You don't know that for sure. It is impossible to prove it without relying on the words written in the Bible or "feelings."

Yeah, you have faith. Faith that those words were written by a messenger of God and not some science fiction author.

But faith is not automatically fact.

I know that for sure.

[bigmike82]

Yes; that would seem more appropriate.

Nope. I don't reject God. I reject the notion that the God of the Old Testament has any moral authority to judge things as sinful given the vast amount of murder, rape and slavery that he condoned, ordered and committed.

[Bill Carson]

Nope. I don't reject God. I reject the notion that the God of the Old Testament has any moral authority to judge things as sinful given the vast amount of murder, rape and slavery that he condoned, ordered and committed.

That is a rejection of God even if you think it isn't.

[bigmike82]

It isn't even if you think it is.

[Watchur6]

Nope. I don't reject God. I reject the notion that the God of the Old Testament has any moral authority to judge things as sinful given the vast amount of murder, rape and slavery that he condoned, ordered and committed.

Well, I guess that's it then. The God of the Bible doesn't line up with your belief system. As a believer it saddens me but I will also have to say that based on this statement alone it shows that you have rejected Him, don't be fooled to think otherwise. Go in peace.

[StraightShooter]

Bigmike, first of all I think it is great that you are asking questions about this because I can assure you this is the most important thing for you to understand and and reach a personal decision on. With that said, it needs to be understood that "the wages of sin is death". Not just murder or rape or sins that WE deem to deserve death as punishment but ALL sins. As such, think of god as a judge that no matter how big or small your sin is, the punishment for that sin is always death. Sounds pretty effed up right? I stole a candy bar and I deserve to die? We'll let me explain why it must be this way. Here on earth if you stand before a judge for doing something wrong, you get judged based on mans laws which frankly are extremely tolerant of people's sin. Why is this? Because we as humans are all sinners and so it is against our nature to feel just in condemning others to death for the same sins that possibly we have committed at some point in our own lives. So why is Gods justice so much more strong that human justice on earth? Because God holds us to an infinitely higher standard than we as humans hold each other. So when you see that god has killed or punished people it is just the same as if a human judge sentences someone to death here on earth. The judge is not murdering anyone.

So with that said, it it important to understand the way the old and New Testament work together. In the Old Testament, there was no savior for our sins. The Old Testament is the book of the law. The only way to be perfect in Gods eyes way to perfectly follow his law, which, for us as humans with a sinful nature is very difficult to do. In Old Testament times the wages of sin were death so you see a whole lot of killing and violence that at first glance appears to be sinful but if you understand gods law, it is simply judgement of sin being carried out.

Now this is where the beauty of the bible is when you get to the New Testament. You find that God gives us a way out of judgement for our own sin. Truly a get out of jail free card. What God does for us in the New Testament is gives us a manifestation of his very own self on earth to both show us what a sinless life on earth looks like and also to provide us a way to escape judgement for our sins. This manifestation of himself is of course Jesus Christ and Jesus is 100% God. So God came down to earth and lived a sinless life to show us with actions EXACTLY how he has wanted us to live all along. When Jesus(God) was crucified on the cross as a human he did so as a sacrifice to FORGIVE your sins UNCONDITIONALLY and all you have to do to receive this forgiveness is recognize what God has done for you in his death and accept that he is your Savior
. The brutal judgement of the Old Testament is no more, and when you die and stand before God in heaven you have either accepted God's gift of salvation or you have denied him, there are only two choices. If you denied him on earth then he will deny you in heaven. If you are denied by God in heaven then you spend eternity apart from God's love and mercy and you spend eternity suffering the consequences of your sin in hell apart from God's forgiveness. I suggest you read Revelation to understand what hell will be like.

As a fellow Christian I want nothing more than for you to experience the same love and mercy that God has shown me, but that choice to accept Christ is fully yours. Please consider it carefully.

God Bless





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[Fate]

The brutal judgement of the Old Testament is no more, and when you die and stand before God in heaven you have either accepted God's gift of salvation or you have denied him, there are only two choices. If you denied him on earth then he will deny you in heaven. If you are denied by God in heaven then you spend eternity apart from God's love and mercy and you spend eternity suffering the consequences of your sin in hell apart from God's forgiveness.

It doesn't sound like the brutal judgement of the OT is done away with at all.

I refuse to worship a god (even if I believed in one anymore) that would torture a person for eternity for mistakes made in 80+/- years of physical life. What about those who lived and died, never hearing anything about Jesus, the bible, God. Seems cruel, harsh, vindictive and petty. Some "merciful" god that is.

[bob7122]

Nope. I don't reject God. I reject the notion that the God of the Old Testament has any moral authority to judge things as sinful given the vast amount of murder, rape and slavery that he condoned, ordered and committed.

you keep saying rape and slavery please let us know what instances you are talking about. when you say slavery do you mean slavery like we know it (blacks in America?) or slavery according to God? God had rules for slavery, they had rights under God's rule unlike blacks did. if you have read the bible you would know this. slaves could only be slaves for 7 years or until a religous festival that i forget the name. if a slave liked his situation and his freedom was given to him he could refuse and choose to remain his masters servitude.

and rape?

[bob7122]

It doesn't sound like the brutal judgement of the OT is done away with at all.

I refuse to worship a god (even if I believed in one anymore) that would torture a person for eternity for mistakes made in 80+/- years of physical life. What about those who lived and died, never hearing anything about Jesus, the bible, God. Seems cruel, harsh, vindictive and petty. Some "merciful" god that is.

that is why you should read the bible for yourself so that you know what happens when you die.-just like a person who can't read/illiterate is easily misled one who has not read gods word will believe anything. not all "Christian" religions believe in eternal torture and hell fire. read the bible and you will find those who follow what he asks based on their actions and adherence to his laws.

[Not a Cook]

It doesn't sound like the brutal judgement of the OT is done away with at all.

I refuse to worship a god (even if I believed in one anymore) that would torture a person for eternity for mistakes made in 80+/- years of physical life. What about those who lived and died, never hearing anything about Jesus, the bible, God. Seems cruel, harsh, vindictive and petty. Some "merciful" god that is.

The second part of your statement ("What about those who...") is answered by the first chapter of the Epistle to the Romans. If you're not familiar with it, I suggest you read Romans 1 and 2. Bottom line: no one is without excuse for rejecting God, and He is willing to save anyone who calls on Him and comes to Him on His terms.

The first part of your statement regarding "... a god... that would torture a person for eternity..." interests me. Like many, I was taught by Bible teachers who believe that hell is a place of everlasting, fiery torment. However, after much personal study of the scriptures, I can't find such teaching in the Bible. Instead, I find the white throne judgment where all who are not saved by Christ will be judged by God for their sins. I see further that the punishment is commiserate with each individual's sins; another way of saying this is that a monster like Hitler will suffer much greater wrath than will the "sweet little old lady down the street" who also rejected Christ. I cannot find how long either of these two individuals will suffer, but I do find that neither will suffer for all eternity. Maybe the hypothetical "little old lady" suffers for a moment, and Hitler for a thousand years. I honestly don't know, nor can I infer anything, because scripture doesn't tell us. But I do know that God is a righteous and holy judge, and I trust His judgment will be right. Ultimately, both will suffer eternal destruction, also referred to as the second death, in the lake of fire. All who die without receiving God's gracious offer of salvation through Christ will suffer punishment of varying degrees according to how they lived their lives. But all of those will ultimately be destroyed and cease to be. Their destruction shall be eternal, but they will not be "being forever destroyed". It's a big distinction. According to the scriptures, the last enemy Christ will destroy will be death. After those who reject Christ are destroyed in the second death, Christ will destroy death itself, and no more shall there be any death.

All that said, you may reject the God of the Bible because you assume the Bible teaches something it doesn't. I encourage you to study the scriptures for yourself before rejecting them. Your eternal destiny (either blessed eternal life in Christ or eternal destruction) depends on it.

Note to fellow followers of Christ: I know many followers of Christ will question the doctrine I just described regarding the nature of hell, but I felt it important to relate to "Fate". If anyone here wants to discuss eschatology in general, or the nature of hell in particular, I am happy to do so, but perhaps it would be better in another thread.

[Not a Cook]

you keep saying rape and slavery please let us know what instances you are talking about. when you say slavery do you mean slavery like we know it (blacks in America?) or slavery according to God? God had rules for slavery, they had rights under God's rule unlike blacks did. if you have read the bible you would know this. slaves could only be slaves for 7 years or until a religous festival that i forget the name. if a slave liked his situation and his freedom was given to him he could refuse and choose to remain his masters servitude.

and rape?

I asked this same question earlier, because God never condoned these sins. However, my question never received a response from those here who claims God condoned such sins. Good catch.

[bob7122]

as to ordering the murder of the 1st born, you forget that God didn't just save the Jews from Egypt. when the Jews left a mixture of people went with the Jews.

How do you know that God didn't save some of Egypt's 1st born. there were some non Jews who saw God's Power and believed in him maybe not all of Egypt's 1st born were in that mixture. -How do you know that some of Egypt's 1st born weren't saved when God ordered his people to mark their houses so that their children would live past that night.-since a mixture of non Jews left egypt with the Jews. God can see into your heart and he will see if you are good, bad, or lukewarm. if you are good and wish to serve him, he will save you. maybe some were saved or maybe God saw that non of Egypt's 1st born were any good. you need to have faith. How do you have faith? by reading the bible and seeing all the great things he had done.

murder and killing are two different things. you are taking small part of history and drawing wrong conclusions. you need to read and study the whole bible to understand Gods actions. why would God order these things and then rule by telling people to do something else? study the whole bible and you will see that God has a reason for doing everything.

[bigmike82]

With that said, it needs to be understood that "the wages of sin is death".

I absolutely understand. That's the threat for not doing what God wants.

Because God holds us to an infinitely higher standard than we as humans hold each other.

Fair enough. But why does God not have to follow his own standard? Again...the murder of the first born of Egypt. How many of those were babies? Are babies capable of sinning? And it's not like God gave Pharaoh a choice. He *hardened* his heart and God murdered because of it. How am I supposed to worship someone who does that?

If you are denied by God in heaven then you spend eternity apart from God's love and mercy and you spend eternity suffering the consequences of your sin in hell apart from God's forgiveness.

If Heaven is really just being able to hang out with God...then...why? The Jesus portrayed in the Gospel is someone who, in my obviously not humble opinion, is worthy of worship. The god of the old testament? No way.

Please consider it carefully.

I have. And the Old Testament makes it really, really difficult. Pope Francis is doing a good job of tempting me back to mass though.

Thanks for your response!

Bob:

you keep saying rape and slavery please let us know what instances you are talking about.

There a bunch of instances. See here:

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

Granted, it's a pretty biased source, but the passages ARE from the bible.

study the whole bible and you will see that God has a reason for doing everything.

I've read a huge chunk of it. Even used to be a eucharistic minister and lecter.

That's what I can't reconcile, and that's what ultimately led me to reject the notion that God (assuming he's portrayed accurately in the Old Testament) can call me a sinner. I haven't done anything one hundredth as bad as what he did in the old days and yet I'm somehow condemned for something like stealing a piece of gum? That simply doesn't make any logical sense to me.

[Not a Cook]

I absolutely understand. That's the threat for not doing what God wants.


Fair enough. But why does God not have to follow his own standard? Again...the murder of the first born of Egypt. How many of those were babies? Are babies capable of sinning? And it's not like God gave Pharaoh a choice. He *hardened* his heart and God murdered because of it. How am I supposed to worship someone who does that?


If Heaven is really just being able to hang out with God...then...why? The Jesus portrayed in the Gospel is someone who, in my obviously not humble opinion, is worthy of worship. The god of the old testament? No way.


I have. And the Old Testament makes it really, really difficult. Pope Francis is doing a good job of tempting me back to mass though.

Thanks for your response!

Bob:


There a bunch of instances. See here:

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

Granted, it's a pretty biased source, but the passages ARE from the bible.


I've read a huge chunk of it. Even used to be a eucharistic minister and lecter.

That's what I can't reconcile, and that's what ultimately led me to reject the notion that God (assuming he's portrayed accurately in the Old Testament) can call me a sinner. I haven't done anything one hundredth as bad as what he did in the old days and yet I'm somehow condemned for something like stealing a piece of gum? That simply doesn't make any logical sense to me.

Bigmike82 - I'll have to wait to type out a full response until I am in front of a computer (it gets difficult typing long messages via phone), but I will respond to each of the supposed places where you think that God condoned immorality. Suffice it to say, He never condoned immorality. You misunderstand the passages if you think that's what is going on in any of the ones you cited.

Also, "eucharistic minister and lecter". What in the world is that? That position is NOT in the Bible. Nor is Pope, or Catholic Priest, for that matter. Nor mass. In fact, the Bible warns against such things. You will find that a very significant portion of official Catholic doctrine is not from the Bible at all, if you take the time to check.