Free Will

[tedw]

Do you have Free will?

[billvau]

No. Either a slave of Sin or slave of righteousness. I'm a slave a righteousness (see Romans 6).

[tedw]

I believe that is accurate in principle.

[tedw]

No. Either a slave of Sin or slave of righteousness. I'm a slave a righteousness (see Romans 6).

I guess you would agree that a truly born again Christian no longer sins then?

[TomMcC]

You need to define what you mean by "free".

But here, this is what I believe to be the case concerning the "will" of man.




WCF CHAPTER 9: Of Free Will

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

[Barang]

you are free to choose whatever you want but there's consequences depending on what you choose be it good or bad.

[TomMcC]

you are free to choose whatever you want but there's consequences depending on what you choose be it good or bad.

Does the wicked and unregenerate "want" Jesus?

[Barang]

Does the wicked and unregenerate "want" Jesus?

they won't be wicked and unregenerate if they chose Jesus.

[tedw]

You need to define what you mean by "free".

But here, this is what I believe to be the case concerning the "will" of man.




WCF CHAPTER 9: Of Free Will

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

"Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it"

The problem with what you wrote, as I see it, is there is no mention of Adam. While what you wrote was true of Adam, we are born of the lineage of Original Sin. Adam had a choice but we are born slaves of sin, under the curse of Adam . And also it mentions "natural bondage under sin" . If you have natural bondage under sin that is not free will is it?

Maybe you can explain these apparent contradictions.

[TomMcC]

they won't be wicked and unregenerate if they chose Jesus.

So the wicked and unregenerate chose Jesus so that they won't be wick and unregenerate?

[TomMcC]

"Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it"

The problem with what you wrote, as I see it, is there is no mention of Adam. While what you wrote was true of Adam, we are born of the lineage of Original Sin. Adam had a choice but we are born slaves of sin, under the curse of Adam . And also it mentions "natural bondage under sin" . If you have natural bondage under sin that is not free will is it?

Maybe you can explain these apparent contradictions.

Man, in his state of innocency is a reference to Adam. He and Eve were the only one's in that state.

You are confusing man's nature, with "free will". Man's nature is sinful and only sinful, man's will is "free" in the sense that it "freely" reflect that nature, whether good or evil. No one forces us to sin, we do it willing.

[Barang]

So the wicked and unregenerate chose Jesus so that they won't be wick and unregenerate?

when a person accepts Jesus as His Lord and Savior that means their lifestyle is different from before the conversion. if there's no change in mind, behavior or lifestyle then that person went in the water a sinner and came out of the water a wet sinner.

if a person claims he's a christian but doesn't obey Christ and continue to live his old ways then it's all talk and no action. Jesus himsself said "you will know them by their works."

[billvau]

I guess you would agree that a truly born again Christian no longer sins then?

No. Read the Bible.

[colossians323]

No. Read the Bible.

well said! Most Christians don't know what the Bible says, they just trust what a teacher tells them and it stops right there.

[DB>]

Man was created without sin, but with free will. Thus Eve and Adam chose to break the rule, eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. With that, they eyes were opened to a wide range of choices both good and bad. Sin being what it is brought temptation, and DEATH among other consequences.

Jesus came as a sacrifice to reverse the eternal consequences. The Holy Spirit serves to guide thase wrestling with good and bad choices, but sin is still present as a choice, as are the mortal ramifications of bad choices. Contemplate the concept in the verse - "all things are lawful but not all are profitable".

The saved believer no longer faces the eternal "wage" of sin, but can reap the results of bad/sinful choices bountifully... You might say one should use their free will to make "profitable" choices as well as "lawful" ones.

One can certainly argue about the validitiy of a salvation conversion if there is no fruit and a change of ways upon accepting Jesus.... but that is another topic.