God's Sovereignty

[TomMcC]

So how do you understand God's sovereignty? Do you believe He is in fact sovereign?

I put this same question up on another big gun board and the answers were interesting to say the least. Some denied His omniscience, some said that there is no such thing as an eternal decree, some promoted in a self conscience way that Augustine did Pelagius wrong, some postulated a partial sovereignty, that God isn't really involved in the details of peoples lives, some said Satan rules this world not God, etc. etc. What say you?

[billvau]

God's Sovereign.

9For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.

5 I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6 That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these. 8 I, the Lord, have created it. 9 101112 I stretched out the heavens with My hands And I ordained all their host. 131415 Truly, You are a God who hides Himself, O God of Israel, Savior! 16 They will be put to shame and even humiliated, all of them; The manufacturers of idols will go away together in humiliation. 17 Israel has been saved by the Lord With an everlasting salvation; You will not be put to shame or humiliated To all eternity. 18. 192021Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. 22

I could quote the rest of the Bible.

Blessings,
Bill

[Garand Hunter]

Great response Bill ! How are you these days ?

Psalm 1

[Barang]

God's sovereignty? bill has the answer.

satan is the ruler of this world for a limited time. God will restore the earth and heaven while satan, his demons and his followers will be in the lake of fire for their final destination ..... forever.

[TomMcC]

God's sovereignty? bill has the answer.

satan is the ruler of this world for a limited time. God will restore the earth and heaven while satan, his demons and his followers will be in the lake of fire for their final destination ..... forever.

So, in your view, God seeded "rule" or "control" over this present world?

[Barang]

So, in your view, God seeded "rule" or "control" over this present world?

i'm not sure what you meant with "seeded." do you mean as in sowing seeds? nonetheless, i'll give you this verse:
Matthew 4:8-10
⁸ Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
⁹ And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
¹⁰ Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

[TomMcC]

i'm not sure what you meant with "seeded." do you mean as in sowing seeds? nonetheless, i'll give you this verse:
Matthew 4:8-10
⁸ Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
⁹ And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
¹⁰ Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Sorry, used the wrong word...

Ceded: past tense: ceded; past participle: ceded

1. give up (power or territory).
   "he ceded control of the company to his brother"

So, when you say Satan is the ruler of this world for a limited time. Do you mean that he is sovereign over this world, and not God? As far as the verse you used, can we trust Satan that he is telling the truth. When he was done tempting Christ was he then required to leave the Lord according to verses 10-11?

[billvau]

So, in your view, God seeded "rule" or "control" over this present world?

God's sovereign, but has given Satan authority over this world. Being sovereign, God still does whatever He wants, when He wants. So, Satan is on a leash, completely under the sovereign control of God. Christ, Himself, called the "god of this world."


John 12:3131
John 14:3030
John 16:1111 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
1 John 5:1919 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
2 Corinthians 4:44 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

A good example of God's sovereignty over-riding Satan, is seen every time a person is saved! Here's an example for false teachers:
2425 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
?
A good example of God's sovereignty over Satan is seen in the story of Job. Job 1-2 shows the interaction between God and Satan. God suggests Job, but controls the extent of what Satan can do. In the end we see that God was using Satan put Job through at trial (Job 42:11).

Blessings,
Bill?
?

[TomMcC]

I think my issue then, as long as we are talking about Satan, isn't so much that he is the "ruler" of this world in a sense, but the word that's applied to him, namely "authority". Did God actually give him "authority" or a "right" to rule. Or do fallen men give him authority to rule in their lives. After all Jesus said:

Matthew 28:18-20 ¹⁸ And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

¹⁹ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

²⁰ Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

[billvau]

I think my issue then, as long as we are talking about Satan, isn't so much that he is the "ruler" of this world in a sense, but the word that's applied to him, namely "authority". Did God actually give him "authority" or a "right" to rule. Or do fallen men give him authority to rule in their lives. After all Jesus said:

Matthew 28:18-20 ¹⁸ And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

¹⁹ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

²⁰ Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Yes and Yes. God actually gave him authority / right to rule. But, he's leading an army of volunteers in a couple of ways. First, all of us are slaves - either slaves of sin or slaves of righteousness (Romans 6). So, fallen men are already slaves to sin. Some going willingly in the direction Satan leads (Satan enters into Judas in John 13). But, some are "snared" / "taken captive" (2 Tim. 2:26 quoted above) by Satan and forced to do his will. I haven't studied this in detail, so I just take it as truth KNOWING that the "snared" were already dead in sin and Satan starts working in them. (Eph. 2:1-3).

Christians can't be "possessed" by Satan because we're possessed by God with the indwelling Holy Spirit. BUT, we can give control over to Satan as Peter teaches that Satan is on the prowl for Christians to devour, so we have to resist (1 Peter 5:8-9, see James too). Honestly, our flesh is the main source of sin in our Christian lives. Study Romans 7-8, 1 Peter 2:12; Gal. 5:17! Personally, since Satan is not omni-present (i.e. can't be everywhere, but just one place at a time), I figure that he's investing his time in the place of greatest return - men/women of great power and influence. That could be anything from the world's greatest false teachers to world leaders.

Blessings,
Bill

[TomMcC]

Ok, maybe you can give me the scripture (s) that would show that God gave him "authority" so I can look them over, or flesh out that view for me. I do agree that God allows Satan to do evil, or has him on a leash.

[Barang]

Sorry, used the wrong word...

Ceded: past tense: ceded; past participle: ceded

1. give up (power or territory).
   "he ceded control of the company to his brother"

So, when you say Satan is the ruler of this world for a limited time. Do you mean that he is sovereign over this world, and not God? As far as the verse you used, can we trust Satan that he is telling the truth. When he was done tempting Christ was he then required to leave the Lord according to verses 10-11?

he would have not offer it to Jesus if he was lying. he knew Jesus is the Son of God and They cannot be deceived.

think of it like a king or president. he's currently the king/president of this world but God will dethrone him and be put in the lake of fire after the war following the millennium. remember, he will be the leader of the one world government through 666 and the false prophet.
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

[TomMcC]

he would have not offer it to Jesus if he was lying. he knew Jesus is the Son of God and They cannot be deceived.

think of it like a king or president. he's currently the king/president of this world but God will dethrone him and be put in the lake of fire after the war following the millennium. remember, he will be the leader of the one world government through 666 and the false prophet.
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Yeah, I wouldn't hold to, what looks like to me, a dispensational view of the end. But be that as it may. It seems you assume that Satan doesn't suffer from self delusion, or that he wouldn't try to lie to the Lord.

So, can we say that ultimately Satan is allowed to rule, somewhat like a vassal king, but God/Christ rules as ultimate sovereign? Didn't Satan and demons have to obey Christ when He ordered them?

[billvau]

Ok, maybe you can give me the scripture (s) that would show that God gave him "authority" so I can look them over, or flesh out that view for me. I do agree that God allows Satan to do evil, or has him on a leash.

The only passage that I can think of that clearly says this is Luke 4:6. Christ never disagreed with any of Satan's claims in the testing in the wilderness and then several times calls Satan the ruler of this world is enough to establish its truth even if God has chosen not to give us the backstory!

5 And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6

[TomMcC]

The only passage that I can think of that clearly says this is Luke 4:6. Christ never disagreed with any of Satan's claims in the testing in the wilderness and then several times calls Satan the ruler of this world is enough to establish its truth even if God has chosen not to give us the backstory!

5 And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6

True the Lord didn't directly contradict Satan's claim "delivered unto me". I might make the argument though that would be an argument from silence. He did rebuke him for undermining the concept or law that we, including Satan, should serve God alone.