Nineveh...Biblical Archeology and Evidence

[SWalt]

I find this amazing and just adds to my belief in Ancient Israel. Evidence proving Hezekiah was a king and even Isiah's prophecies. THought you all would enjoy it too.

https://youtu.be/34XBkm4QiLo?

A refresher. Sorry, its 2 chapters and can be a slog. Read or don't read but context is everything.

2 Kings 18 NASB

Hezekiah Reigns over Judah
1 Now it came about in the third year of Hoshea, the son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah became king.
2 He was twenty-five * years old when he became king, and he reigned twenty-nine * years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Abi the daughter of Zechariah.
3 He did right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father David had done.
4 He removed the high places and broke down the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah. He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan.
5 He trusted in the LORD, the God of Israel; so that after him there was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among those who were before him.
6 For he clung to the LORD; he did not depart from following Him, but kept His commandments, which the LORD had commanded Moses.
Hezekiah Victorious
7 And the LORD was with him; wherever * he went he prospered. And he rebelled against the king of Assyria and did not serve him.
8 He defeated the Philistines as far as Gaza and its territory, from watchtower to fortified city.
9 Now in the fourth year of King Hezekiah, which was the seventh year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Shalmaneser king of Assyria came up against Samaria and besieged * it.
10 At the end of three years they captured it; in the sixth year of Hezekiah, which was the ninth year of Hoshea king of Israel, Samaria was captured.
11 Then the king of Assyria carried Israel away into exile to Assyria, and put them in Halah and on the Habor, the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes,
12 because * they did not obey the voice of the LORD their God, but transgressed His covenant, even all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded; they would neither listen nor do it.
Invasion of Judah
13 Now in the fourteenth * year of King Hezekiah, Sennacherib king of Assyria came up against all the fortified cities of Judah and seized them.
14 Then Hezekiah king of Judah sent to the king of Assyria at Lachish, saying, "I have done wrong. Withdraw from me; whatever you impose on me I will bear." So the king of Assyria required of Hezekiah king of Judah three hundred talents of silver and thirty talents of gold.
15 Hezekiah gave him all the silver which was found in the house of the LORD, and in the treasuries of the king's house.
16 At that time Hezekiah cut off the gold from the doors of the temple of the LORD, and from the doorposts which Hezekiah king of Judah had overlaid, and gave it to the king of Assyria.
17 Then the king of Assyria sent Tartan and Rab-saris and Rabshakeh from Lachish to King Hezekiah with a large army to Jerusalem. So they went up and came to Jerusalem. And when they went up, they came and stood by the conduit of the upper pool, which is on the highway of the fuller's field.
18 When they called to the king, Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, who was over the household, and Shebnah the scribe and Joah the son of Asaph the recorder, came out to them.
19 Then Rabshakeh said to them, "Say now to Hezekiah, 'Thus says the great king, the king of Assyria, "What is this confidence that you have?
20 "You say (but they are only empty words ), 'I have counsel and strength for the war.' Now on whom do you rely, that you have rebelled against me?
21 "Now behold, you rely on the staff of this crushed reed, even on Egypt; on which if a man leans, it will go into his hand and pierce it. So is Pharaoh king of Egypt to all who rely on him.
22 "But if you say to me, 'We trust in the LORD our God,' is it not He whose high places and whose altars Hezekiah has taken away, and has said to Judah and to Jerusalem, 'You shall worship before this altar in Jerusalem '?
23 "Now therefore, come, make a bargain with my master the king of Assyria, and I will give you two thousand horses, if you are able on your part to set riders on them.
24 "How then can you repulse * one official of the least of my master's servants, and rely on Egypt for chariots and for horsemen?
25 "Have I now come up without the LORD'S approval against this place to destroy it? The LORD said to me, 'Go up against this land and destroy it.' ""'
26 Then Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and Shebnah and Joah, said to Rabshakeh, "Speak now to your servants in Aramaic, for we understand it; and do not speak with us in Judean in the hearing of the people who are on the wall."
27 But Rabshakeh said to them, "Has my master sent me only to your master and to you to speak these words, and not to the men who sit on the wall, doomed to eat their own dung and drink their own urine with you?"
28 Then Rabshakeh stood and cried with a loud voice in Judean, saying *, "Hear the word of the great king, the king of Assyria.
29 "Thus says the king, 'Do not let Hezekiah deceive you, for he will not be able to deliver you from my hand;
30 nor let Hezekiah make you trust in the LORD, saying, "The LORD will surely deliver us, and this city will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria."
31 'Do not listen to Hezekiah, for thus says the king of Assyria, "Make your peace with me and come out to me, and eat each of his vine and each of his fig tree and drink each of the waters of his own cistern,
32 until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of grain and new wine, a land of bread and vineyards, a land of olive trees and honey, that you may live and not die." But do not listen to Hezekiah when he misleads you, saying, "The LORD will deliver us."
33 'Has any one of the gods of the nations delivered his land from the hand of the king of Assyria?
34 'Where are the gods of Hamath and Arpad? Where are the gods of Sepharvaim, Hena and Ivvah? Have they delivered Samaria from my hand?
35 'Who among all the gods of the lands have delivered their land from my hand, that the LORD should deliver Jerusalem from my hand?' "
36 But the people were silent and answered him not a word, for the king's commandment was, "Do not answer him."
37 Then Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, who was over the household, and Shebna the scribe and Joah the son of Asaph, the recorder, came to Hezekiah with their clothes torn and told him the words of Rabshakeh.

2 Kings 19 NASB

Isaiah Encourages Hezekiah
1 And when King Hezekiah heard it, he tore his clothes, covered himself with sackcloth and entered the house of the LORD.
2 Then he sent Eliakim who was over the household with Shebna the scribe and the elders of the priests, covered with sackcloth, to Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz.
3 They said to him, "Thus says Hezekiah, 'This day is a day of distress, rebuke, and rejection; for children have come to birth and there is no strength to deliver.
4 'Perhaps the LORD your God will hear all the words of Rabshakeh, whom his master the king of Assyria has sent to reproach the living God, and will rebuke the words which the LORD your God has heard. Therefore, offer a prayer for the remnant that is left.' "
5 So the servants of King Hezekiah came to Isaiah.
6 Isaiah said to them, "Thus you shall say to your master, 'Thus says the LORD, "Do not be afraid because * of the words that you have heard, with which the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed Me.
7 "Behold, I will put a spirit in him so that he will hear a rumor and return to his own land. And I will make him fall by the sword in his own land.""'
Sennacherib Defies God
8 Then Rabshakeh returned and found the king of Assyria fighting against Libnah, for he had heard that the king had left Lachish.
9 When he heard them say concerning Tirhakah king of Cush, "Behold, he has come out to fight against you," he sent messengers again to Hezekiah saying,
10 "Thus you shall say to Hezekiah king of Judah, 'Do not let your God in whom you trust deceive you saying, "Jerusalem will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria."
11 'Behold, you have heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all the lands, destroying them completely. So will you be spared?
12 'Did the gods of those nations which my fathers destroyed deliver them, even Gozan and Haran and Rezeph and the sons of Eden who were in Telassar?
13 'Where is the king of Hamath, the king of Arpad, the king of the city of Sepharvaim, and of Hena and Ivvah?' "
Hezekiah's Prayer
14 Then Hezekiah took the letter from the hand of the messengers and read it, and he went up to the house of the LORD and spread it out before the LORD.
15 Hezekiah prayed before the LORD and said, "O LORD, the God of Israel, who are enthroned above the cherubim, You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.
16 "Incline Your ear, O LORD, and hear; open Your eyes, O LORD, and see; and listen to the words of Sennacherib, which he has sent to reproach the living God.
17 "Truly, O LORD, the kings of Assyria have devastated the nations and their lands
18 and have cast their gods into the fire, for they were not gods but the work of men's hands, wood and stone. So they have destroyed them.
19 "Now, O LORD our God, I pray, deliver us from his hand that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that You alone, O LORD, are God."
God's Answer through Isaiah
20 Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent to Hezekiah saying, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Because you have prayed to Me about Sennacherib king of Assyria, I have heard you.'
21 "This is the word that the LORD has spoken against him: 'She has despised you and mocked you, The virgin daughter of Zion; She has shaken her head behind you, The daughter of Jerusalem!
22 'Whom have you reproached and blasphemed? And against whom have you raised your voice, And haughtily lifted up your eyes? Against the Holy One of Israel!
23 'Through your messengers you have reproached the Lord, And you have said, "With my many chariots I came up to the heights of the mountains, To the remotest parts of Lebanon; And I cut down its tall cedars and its choice cypresses. And I entered its farthest lodging place, its thickest forest.
24 "I dug wells and drank foreign waters, And with the sole of my feet I dried up All the rivers of Egypt."
25 'Have you not heard? Long ago I did it; From ancient times I planned it. Now I have brought it to pass, That you should turn * fortified cities into ruinous heaps.
26 'Therefore their inhabitants were short of strength, They were dismayed and put to shame; They were as the vegetation of the field and as the green herb, As grass on the housetops is scorched before it is grown up.
27 'But I know your sitting down, And your going out and your coming in, And your raging against Me.
28 'Because of your raging against Me, And because your arrogance has come up to My ears, Therefore I will put My hook in your nose, And My bridle in your lips, And I will turn you back by the way which you came.
29 'Then this shall be the sign for you: you will eat this year what grows of itself, in the second year what springs from the same, and in the third year sow, reap, plant vineyards, and eat their fruit.
30 'The surviving remnant of the house of Judah will again take root downward and bear fruit upward.
31 'For out of Jerusalem will go forth a remnant, and out of Mount Zion survivors. The zeal of the LORD will perform this.
32 'Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the king of Assyria, "He will not come to this city or shoot an arrow there; and he will not come before it with a shield or throw up a siege ramp against it.
33 "By the way that he came, by the same he will return, and he shall not come to this city,"' declares the LORD.
34 'For I will defend this city to save it for My own sake and for My servant David's sake.' "
35 Then it happened that night that the angel of the LORD went out and struck 185,000 * * * in the camp of the Assyrians; and when men rose early in the morning, behold, all of them were dead *.
36 So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed and returned home, and lived at Nineveh.
37 It came about as he was worshiping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and Sharezer killed him with the sword; and they escaped into the land of Ararat. And Esarhaddon his son became king in his place.

[Garand Hunter]

Evidence is all over the middle east, the existence of the state of Israel is also proof.

Psalm 1

[Kokopelli]

That was a good video. Thanks for sharing it! It is amazing how archaeology consistently proves the inerrancy of scripture.

One note on Jonah chapter 4....

10 But the Lord said, “You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”

I have always understood that bold part to mean people too young to know their right hand from their left to mean the very young. Like infants and toddlers. In America, those under five years old is 5.6% of the population. A city with that many little ones could mean a population that could have had a upwards of 2,142,857 souls.

To solve this problem you multiply 120,000 by 100 and then divide the total by 5.6 as follows: (120000 x 100) / 5.6. Roughly the population of Houston, Texas.

2 Kings 19:35 Then it happened that night that the angel of the LORD went out and struck 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians; and when men rose early in the morning, behold, all of them were dead *.

185,000 dead out of a total population of 2,142,857 sounds like God destroyed the entire Assyrian army.

[CVShooter]

Some places, the text of the Bible matches the archaeological records. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes, parts agree and parts disagree.

I've walked Hezekiah's tunnel. A student who came the year before me found a clay seal from King Hezekiah lying on the ground near an unexcavated site. There's no doubt he was a real, historical person or that the events described about the siege are true. We can agree or disagree on the causes (was it YHWH that delivered them? Some freak accident? Internal dissent among the Assyrians? Some other secret event?). But, yea, stuff happened.

What I don't understand is why, 20+ years ago, Hezekiah's tunnel was a haven for closet streakers. In small groups, people used to go in & once it was dark enough, they'd strip & then walk the tunnel nude, getting dressed once they saw the light at the end. In a country where beaches are essentially clothing-optional after sunset, it seemed like an odd thing to do.

But the key takeaway, historically, is that Nineveh didn't need to take Jerusalem in order to control Judah anyway. Judah itself had fallen. Yea, the capital was being a little frisky at times. But Hezekiah was ready to cave. They took Egypt, which they couldn't have taken without controlling the supply routes through the Levant. Jerusalem would have been a nice jewel in the crown of Sennacherib but not necessary. Egypt was a much bigger prize. The Bible makes a big to-do about how it was Israel's lack of fidelity that undid their greatness. But the fact remains that it was never more than a small mouse in a game dominated by fighting cats. Solomon, at best, was a big mouse. The only time the mice get to play is when the cats are away. That was Solomon's time. But once the cats come back in, they have to run and hide. Same goes for today. Assyria was the return of the cats after they had been absent for a while, followed by bigger cats (Babylon, Persia, Greece & Rome).

[damon1272]

2 kings 19. One of my favorite lessons on how we should act and respond to God. Lay all your problems before Him. Speak to Him through Christ. God will hear and respond to a humble heart as He did for Hezekaih.

[SWalt]

Some places, the text of the Bible matches the archaeological records. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes, parts agree and parts disagree.

I've walked Hezekiah's tunnel. A student who came the year before me found a clay seal from King Hezekiah lying on the ground near an unexcavated site. There's no doubt he was a real, historical person or that the events described about the siege are true. We can agree or disagree on the causes (was it YHWH that delivered them? Some freak accident? Internal dissent among the Assyrians? Some other secret event?). But, yea, stuff happened.

What I don't understand is why, 20+ years ago, Hezekiah's tunnel was a haven for closet streakers. In small groups, people used to go in & once it was dark enough, they'd strip & then walk the tunnel nude, getting dressed once they saw the light at the end. In a country where beaches are essentially clothing-optional after sunset, it seemed like an odd thing to do.

But the key takeaway, historically, is that Nineveh didn't need to take Jerusalem in order to control Judah anyway. Judah itself had fallen. Yea, the capital was being a little frisky at times. But Hezekiah was ready to cave. They took Egypt, which they couldn't have taken without controlling the supply routes through the Levant. Jerusalem would have been a nice jewel in the crown of Sennacherib but not necessary. Egypt was a much bigger prize. The Bible makes a big to-do about how it was Israel's lack of fidelity that undid their greatness. But the fact remains that it was never more than a small mouse in a game dominated by fighting cats. Solomon, at best, was a big mouse. The only time the mice get to play is when the cats are away. That was Solomon's time. But once the cats come back in, they have to run and hide. Same goes for today. Assyria was the return of the cats after they had been absent for a while, followed by bigger cats (Babylon, Persia, Greece & Rome).

Then I would say you don't understand the Torah, the history, the Bible or God much. All those kingdoms are long dead and gone, but that small mouse is still around. Even today it shakes the world. Not bad for a little insignificant naton.

[CVShooter]

Then I would say you don't understand the Torah, the history, the Bible or God much. All those kingdoms are long dead and gone, but that small mouse is still around. Even today it shakes the world. Not bad for a little insignificant naton.

I'll bite. It's a nation that is about the size of the state of NJ. Pretty darned small. The nation that exists today has an ethnic link back to the OT but that's about it. Culturally, they're nothing like the OT. That is, pardon the cliche, ancient history. You see one nation over time. I see 2 very different countries and cultures with a remote ethnic link.

The nation that exists today is the result of secular Zionism. What is that? Jewish communities in Europe & the former Soviet Union, got tired of waiting around for YHWH to send a "Messiah" to come and deliver them. So they took matters into their own hands. Theodore Herzl, David Ben Gurion... These guys were secular. Some were agnostic. Many were atheists. And (*gasp*) communist. Very very communist. They had zero belief that what they were doing had anything to do with YHWH or religion. That's why, to this day, the Orthodox community distances itself from the national government -- they don't believe it is legitimate and never have. Culturally, they're very European. America is a prudish and religiously conservative country by comparison. Some 80% or more of Israelis don't practice any religion at all. Most couldn't give a rat's ___ about YHWH, synagogue or all that jazz.

The Kibutzim were foundational in the modern state's formation. What are those? Secular, agricultural communes, like Hippy camps here in the 1960s. Some were more extreme than others where very little personal property could be owned. Even today, many allow some personal property but shared ownership of larger items like cars and tools is pretty common.

By and large, beaches are top-optional, even for women. After sunset, it's clothing optional. Culturally-speaking, Israelis are not the ancient Hebrews. They're modern Europeans. This is a huge reason why the modern state of Israel is harder for other Near Eastern and Middle Eastern nations to support. It's like a bunch of pagans just showed up and took over their very conservative country with backing from the West. Talk about a slap in the face to conservative Muslim countries!

So why do so many Americans believe in some kind of religious connection to the modern state of Israel? They were (and still are) phenomenal at marketing that idea to the US to solicit donations and support. Back in the 40s, they found Americans very responsive to that idea and have been pushing that story ever since because it helps them raise money. Meanwhile, they took our money under that story and bought weapons from Communist Czechoslovakia under the idea that they'd be helping spread Communism. It's brilliant, really. But no Israeli I've ever spoken with believes any of it. Not a bit. When Netanyahu was out of favor in the late 90s, he'd market that idea big time here as a diplomat but he strikes a very different tone with Israelis. He's Zionist either way. But Zionism to Israelis is a highly secular thing while Americans think it's a religious thing.

Thankfully, Israel has become very capitalist since its early days. A lot of that has to do with our influence during the Cold War. But the country wouldn't exist without our military & other economic aid. We wouldn't be that supportive if they weren't a strategic ally in an area that we depend on for oil and that now harbors so many terrorists. By comparison, the second largest recipient of our foreign aid is Egypt, which has gotten only about half as much as we've sent Israel over the years. We both benefit -- Israel and the US. We'd be hurt by their lack of support on our end. But without our support, they'd cease to exist at all. Even some nations that we're on good terms with would support their fall if it weren't for us holding them back. And it is why many neighboring countries still feel like Israel is a colonial power from the West.

That's not to say that they're not an important country. That geographic location has always been critical to control. It's partly why it was so alluring for the nomadic Hebrews to conquer as it was far enough away from the major powers to stay outside of their direct control (for a time) but close enough to be able to control key trade & travel routes between them. Today, that geography is still important. We'd want to be on good terms with whoever controls it. The fact that they're so beholden to us is good for us.

So, yea, if you want to make some big deal out of it in your own religious context, go for it. Israelis certainly won't stop you from believing in some BS story that benefits them. If you believed that God wants you to send me 5% of your money each year, I'm not going to try that hard to convince you otherwise. I may even see if you have any friends that believe the same thing. But it wouldn't cease to be utter BS just because you believe it to be true.

Diplomacy -- lots of smoke and mirrors.

[Sailormilan2]

Some places, the text of the Bible matches the archaeological records. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes, parts agree and parts disagree.
The Bible makes a big to-do about how it was Israel's lack of fidelity that undid their greatness. But the fact remains that it was never more than a small mouse in a game dominated by fighting cats. Solomon, at best, was a big mouse. The only time the mice get to play is when the cats are away. That was Solomon's time. But once the cats come back in, they have to run and hide. Same goes for today. Assyria was the return of the cats after they had been absent for a while, followed by bigger cats (Babylon, Persia, Greece & Rome).

There are 3 competing stories regarding Hezekiah, Sennacherib, and the attack on Jerusalem. Each one of those stories are different. There is of course the Biblical story. The story told from Sennacherib's position, found on what's called, "Sennacherib's Prism". Finally, the version by Herodotus. All vary greatly, and the Biblical version and Sennacherib's version are probably very self serving, and Herodotus' version is probably somewhat neutral. So the truth is probably somewhere in the middle of the three.
Studies have also shown that doing Hezekiah's Tunnel in the time stated, with the tools of the time. woulda have been a very difficult, if not impossible, job. Some of it may have been done at a previous time, and Hezekiah's team may have just enlarged it.
Some current historical scholars believe that Isreal did not become a combined monarchy until the fall of Samaria to the Assyrians, when many in Samaria fled south to Judea to escape the Assyrians. This as about the time that some scholars also believe that they became truly monotheistic.
In other words, a combined kingdom under Saul, David, and Solomon did not exist.

[p7m8jg]

Great video, thank you for posting it.
I love the archeology news out of the middle east. Recently they found some perfectly preserved roman swords that had apparently been stashed in a cave by jewish rebels, or so they surmise.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/archaeologists-uncover-four-roman-swords-in-israeli-cave-180982869/

[SWalt]

I'll bite. It's a nation that is about the size of the state of NJ. Pretty darned small. The nation that exists today has an ethnic link back to the OT but that's about it. Culturally, they're nothing like the OT. That is, pardon the cliche, ancient history. You see one nation over time. I see 2 very different countries and cultures with a remote ethnic link.

The nation that exists today is the result of secular Zionism. What is that? Jewish communities in Europe & the former Soviet Union, got tired of waiting around for YHWH to send a "Messiah" to come and deliver them. So they took matters into their own hands. Theodore Herzl, David Ben Gurion... These guys were secular. Some were agnostic. Many were atheists. And (*gasp*) communist. Very very communist. They had zero belief that what they were doing had anything to do with YHWH or religion. That's why, to this day, the Orthodox community distances itself from the national government -- they don't believe it is legitimate and never have. Culturally, they're very European. America is a prudish and religiously conservative country by comparison. Some 80% or more of Israelis don't practice any religion at all. Most couldn't give a rat's ___ about YHWH, synagogue or all that jazz.

The Kibutzim were foundational in the modern state's formation. What are those? Secular, agricultural communes, like Hippy camps here in the 1960s. Some were more extreme than others where very little personal property could be owned. Even today, many allow some personal property but shared ownership of larger items like cars and tools is pretty common.

By and large, beaches are top-optional, even for women. After sunset, it's clothing optional. Culturally-speaking, Israelis are not the ancient Hebrews. They're modern Europeans. This is a huge reason why the modern state of Israel is harder for other Near Eastern and Middle Eastern nations to support. It's like a bunch of pagans just showed up and took over their very conservative country with backing from the West. Talk about a slap in the face to conservative Muslim countries!

So why do so many Americans believe in some kind of religious connection to the modern state of Israel? They were (and still are) phenomenal at marketing that idea to the US to solicit donations and support. Back in the 40s, they found Americans very responsive to that idea and have been pushing that story ever since because it helps them raise money. Meanwhile, they took our money under that story and bought weapons from Communist Czechoslovakia under the idea that they'd be helping spread Communism. It's brilliant, really. But no Israeli I've ever spoken with believes any of it. Not a bit. When Netanyahu was out of favor in the late 90s, he'd market that idea big time here as a diplomat but he strikes a very different tone with Israelis. He's Zionist either way. But Zionism to Israelis is a highly secular thing while Americans think it's a religious thing.

Thankfully, Israel has become very capitalist since its early days. A lot of that has to do with our influence during the Cold War. But the country wouldn't exist without our military & other economic aid. We wouldn't be that supportive if they weren't a strategic ally in an area that we depend on for oil and that now harbors so many terrorists. By comparison, the second largest recipient of our foreign aid is Egypt, which has gotten only about half as much as we've sent Israel over the years. We both benefit -- Israel and the US. We'd be hurt by their lack of support on our end. But without our support, they'd cease to exist at all. Even some nations that we're on good terms with would support their fall if it weren't for us holding them back. And it is why many neighboring countries still feel like Israel is a colonial power from the West.

That's not to say that they're not an important country. That geographic location has always been critical to control. It's partly why it was so alluring for the nomadic Hebrews to conquer as it was far enough away from the major powers to stay outside of their direct control (for a time) but close enough to be able to control key trade & travel routes between them. Today, that geography is still important. We'd want to be on good terms with whoever controls it. The fact that they're so beholden to us is good for us.

So, yea, if you want to make some big deal out of it in your own religious context, go for it. Israelis certainly won't stop you from believing in some BS story that benefits them. If you believed that God wants you to send me 5% of your money each year, I'm not going to try that hard to convince you otherwise. I may even see if you have any friends that believe the same thing. But it wouldn't cease to be utter BS just because you believe it to be true.

Diplomacy -- lots of smoke and mirrors.

Very well said. Bet you weren't expecting that huh? Modern day Israel exists only as a past/present day marketing scheme? That its mostly peopled by the hedonistic who have nothing in common with ancient Israel or its beliefs? Israel exists mostly because of gullible Americans who can't even understand they are being taken for a ride while others see through it and at best ambivalent if Israel exists or not? Ok.....and?

[CVShooter]

Very well said. Bet you weren't expecting that huh? Modern day Israel exists only as a past/present day marketing scheme? That its mostly people by the hedonistic who have nothing in common with ancient Israel or its beliefs? Israel exists mostly because of gullible Americans who can't even understand they are being taken for a ride while others see through it and at best ambivalent if Israel exists or not? Ok.....and?

"Only" exists as a marketing scheme? No. But it was and is a major component.

"Hedonistic?" No. Just secular. Nudity isn't as taboo as it is here. Even grandma & grandpa would lunge around in their undies at the beach like it was no big deal. That's a far cry from public orgies. But it's also a far cry from the ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods where head coverings are mandatory.

"Nothing in common?" No. Just very little by way of lifestyle, culture and beliefs. A lot of modern day Judaism and its culture is from stuff that happened well after the fall of Rome.

"Mostly exists because of gullible Americans?" Maybe so. It was and is a major part of their funding efforts.

"Taken for a ride?" Maybe some. Some beliefs are harmless. Some are beneficial. Are we being harmed by that narrative? As a country, not really. As individuals, I guess that all depends on your financial situation and how much cash you send. Me, I'm of the eyes-open mindset. I might be getting screwed somehow but that doesn't always mean I won't do it anyway if I benefit. I just like to know if I'm being lied to or what somebody else's interests are involved my decisions. Whether you think it's worthwhile or not is up to you.

For my part, I think they're an important ally in an area where we need allies. But I think it's ironic that American Christians often support Israel under the guise that they're the ancient Hebrews. It's especially sad in light of the lack of support given to Palestinian Christians in the West Bank & Gaza. It's like backing your cousins against your own brothers & sisters.