Learning about the Rapture

[Sailormilan2]

At the request of a buddy, I am watching some Perry Stone DVDs on the Rapture. I'm about 2/3 the way through(3 DVDS watched out of a total of 5), and the jury is still out. My buddy and I were both raised SDA, which iteaches post Trib 2nd Coming. My buddy gave up on the Church many years ago, but I still retain some of the core beliefs. I have dumped a bunch of the other stuff they teach.
I can say that I am trying to watch these with an open mind, and I have learned things. However, after my experiences with my Church, I have developed a rule that I use on everyone. That rule is, if they are wrong on any one thing, then I can assume they are wrong in everything. Once I hit a "wrong" spot, it makes it difficult to proceed. As a retired LEO I am familiar with a CA Jury Instruction that states that if one has determined that witness has lied about one thing, one can assume that they have lied about everything.
The issue comes down to if the "error" truly is an error, or if it is a deliberate "error". Along the lines of the Jesuit, "the end justifies the means".
So far, I've run into two "errors". The first being the biggest.
1 Thes. 4:14-17. I was raised learning vs 16 & 17, but nothing was said about vs 14, as it seems to violate our teachings. However, what I am talking about is the, "God will bring with Him". Perry Sone says, and I have heard it from others, that that proves there is a Rapture, since there hasn't been any resurrection. Those people Christ is bringing with Him have to come from somewhere, ergo, Rapture.
Which plainly ignores the resurrection Matthew speaks of that occurred at Christ resurrection. The trouble is that one does not know how big a group it was. Matt.27:52 says, "many", but can also mean "great" or "much". My personal feeling is that it is at least 24, from Rev. 19:4, but "24" is not "many", "much", or "great". So, we have no idea what size group it is. Though I lean towards a really, really big group, possibly everyone from the First Covenant. That is a personal opinion, with no Biblical proof.
Eph. 4:8's "He led captivity captive" is sometimes translated, in some side bar translations, as "He led a multitude of multitudes". But, that brings up the problem of, is that a literal comment? Did He actually lead a multitude right at that time? Or, was that a figurative statement in that He was the first of many yet to come?
Am I being too picky, to harsh, and not giving Perry Stone a chance? Or, am I at least somewhat on the right idea. I do agree with many of the things he says, and I am learning. I'm just not sure that I can agree with all of his conclusions.

[RAMCLAP]

I don't think you are too harsh or picky. There are at least 6 different eschatological theories. 4 of them are at least 1500 years old. 1 is over 400 years old. The newest is 200 years old. So, the subject has been speculated on by the greatest theologians for a long time. It is not suprising that you are confused. You're in a very large club.

[Garand Hunter]

I Bros, I don't have any stock in Perry Stone or his ministry, However I believe his efforts to help folks understand " The Rapture " are sincere and accurate.
Another Bro, now passed on has excellent material on the rapture is Chuck Missler. Give Perry a chance and include plenty of prayer as well. I myself absolutely " expect The Rapture " to occur when the Church Age has ran its course. When, when the Almighty says it done, go get my family and bring them to me.

Psalm 1

[TrailerparkTrash]

I personally don’t ascribe to the “Rapture” theory. Many people do and this is why we within the Christian family must allow for “liberty” on the non-essential doctrine and belief. I believe that the rapture is a -non-essential” doctrine.

Not Martin Luther, Calvin, nor the Catholic Church and many others ever believed in the rapture. It was created by John Nelson Darby who was a kook.

Anyway, I don’t think that scripture points to a rapture. It points to a second coming but not a rapture.

[tsmithson]

[Wordupmybrotha]

I've never studied up on rapture, pre-tribulation, post-tribulation, etc. Frankly, I found it inconsequential to me . The second coming of Jesus is explicit, but the rapture is so fuzzy.

Serious question to the OP: how does this knowledge impact your walk with Christ?

Perhaps, I'm missing the value of it.

[Kokopelli]

Not Martin Luther, Calvin, nor the Catholic Church and many others ever believed in the rapture. It was created by John Nelson Darby who was a kook.

[Just Dave]

A violent removal from earth.
The Bible makes it clear.

A lot of so called learned persons will say different.

Three words in the Greek language needs to be considered

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/harpazo.html

Harpazo is a violent taking.
Think about being thrown into the side of a van and whisked away. It's quick and brutal

https://biblehub.com/greek/3880.htm

This is as if two police officers come along side and carry you off.
It's not quick and it's not forceful

The next Greek work which I can not find at the moment is Jesus calling His people together.
Think dinner bell. This coming together is voluntary.
When I get the word I will post it

Matthew 24:31 episynagō https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=G1996&t=KJV

[Kokopelli]

[billvau]

Amen. Your key phrase is "actual teachings from the Bible." When I had to study end-times (eschatology) in Seminary, we went through every view. What was most fascinating was the in every other view other than pre-trib Rapture, the main proponents ADMITTED that if you use a consistent, historical, literal (i.e. within genre, within context), interpretation (i.e. hermeneutic), you would come up with a pre-Trib Rapture! IOW, ALL other views somehow allegorize Scripture away from it's natural, in-context meaning as would've been seen by the authors and Christians at the time of writings.

I don't fight over eschatological views, but love to tell others that I'll look for them as we're being raptured to see the wondrous look of surprise and joy on their faces!

[WASR10]

Agreed



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[libertyordeath]

When JESUS came back and got me I was being attacked from all sides and one of them was the rapture and other teachings and from the bottom of my heart I told GOD I need you to show me the truth I don’t want to be deceived.

It was a Saturday a rapture video was in my YouTube feed I watched the video and it gave my spirit a peace but still had some doubt, next day we go to church the pastor comes up and says I’m going off course today from are teaching in John and we going to study end times and rapture.

I was like ok this interesting and to top it off when we worship we end the service with a song we sang normal right well not that day we ended service with a song we didn’t sing we sang 10,000 reasons , so here is the kicker that was the same song the video ended with and I just smiled and said GOD I hear you loud and clear. So yes I believe in the rapture not because man told me but GOD himself told me.

[socal m1 shooter]

[...]Many people do and this is why we within the Christian family must allow for “liberty” on the non-essential doctrine and belief. I believe that the rapture is a -non-essential” doctrine.
[...]

I agree that this is not something to divide over. There are many very careful thinkers-- Greg Koukl, for example-- who don't agree with the pre-tribulation rapture. At the same time, there are others, equally careful, deep thinkers, who argue for a pre-tribulation rapture. You can't reasonably expect these arguments to be distilled into a twenty-five-words-or-less CG post, however.

One proponent of a pre-tribulation rapture, who makes (what seems to me) a very compelling argument for that perspective is Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. He wrote a book, in fact, Footsteps of the Messiah. It is 840 pages of how to understand eschatology through the lens of OT and NT prophecy.

I was directed to this book when I asked a friend to help me understand J. Vernon McGee's take on Matthew 24, particularly verses 37-41. My friend, one of the most Godly people I have been privileged to know, a tremendous student of the Bible, and self-taught in Hebrew and Greek, directed me to Fruchtenbaum's book.

Key points from Fruchtenbaum's argument are:

John 14:1-3 includes the promise "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." Fruchtenbaum explains:

This passage does not detail the Rapture event, but does contain the promise of it. In these verses, Jesus promised to return for the believers. Nothing is revealed as to the time or the circumstances, only the fact that there is a coming of Jesus for His saints. This coming especially for the saints is the subject of revelation in the two other passages. This passage does make one key point: this coming for the believers was for the purpose of taking them to where He was then going. Since Jesus was then going to Heaven, this is a coming to take the saints to Heaven and not to the earth. This is important because in Postribulationism the saints meet the Lord in the air and return with Him to the earth. But this is not the promise here. He is coming to take the saints to Heaven. The passage itself says nothing about the timing of the Rapture, only that the result of it is our entry into Heaven. This fits well with Pretribulationism.

Regarding another well-known passage, one of the many points he raises is:

The second passage is I Thessalonians 4:13-18, which describes the program of the Rapture [...] In verses 13-15, Paul answers a question that has been raised in Thessalonica: Do believers who have died miss out on the benefits of the Rapture? [...] Having stared that the dead believers benefit from the Rapture before the living do, in verses 16-17, Paul spells out the chronnlogical sequence of the Rapture event in seven stages to show why this is true. First: the Lord himself shall descend from heaven. At some point in the future, Jesus will come out of the Heaven of heavens and descend imo the atmospheric heavens. [...]
Sixth: then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds. The resurrection of the dead saints is followed by the translation of the living saints. Every believer without exception will be removed from the earth and will be united with the Lord Jesus in the heavens. 'The living believers will be caught up (raptured) with the dead ones. This is the source of the term rapture. The Greek word used here, harpazo, means "to be caught up." The English term rapture comes from a Latin source which is the Latin equivalent to the Greek term meaning the same thing: "to be caught up."
The seventh step is: to meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord. The final step is the fact that both the resurrected dead believers and translated living believers will both meet the Messiah in the air. Then comes the guarantee that once believers have been united with Him in the air, they will permanently remain with Him and return with Him into Heaven, as already promised in John 14: 1-3. This passage also says nothing about the timing of the Rapture, only the chronological sequence in which the Rapture event occurs.

Finally, regarding 1 Corinthians 15:50-58, he remarks:

The event is said to happen at the time of the last trump. Both Midtribulationists and Posttriblilationists try to identify this with the seventh trumpet of the Book of Revelation. But this cannot be what is meant by the last trump; at the time that I Corinthians was written, John had not written Revelation. The Corinthians would not have had any knowledge of seven trumpets. Yet it is evident from the fact that Paul used the definite article the last trump that he expected the Corinthians to know what he was talking about. [...]

Regarding the timing of the Rapture, he offers a total of five different reasons, based on five different passages, as to why the Rapture must come before the great tribulation. I can't quote all of that here, as it covers several pages, but some key elements:

The next question concerning the Rapture is when will it take place? That the Scriptures teach that the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation is clear from several lines of evidence.
First: in no biblical passage which discusses the Tribulation is the Church mentioned. The fact that saints are found in the Tribulation does not prove that the Church is there any more than the existence of saints in the Old Testament proves that the Church was there.
[...]
Fifth: another key verse dealing with the timing element of the Rapture is in Revelation 3:10. In this passage. the Church is promised to be kept from the period of trial that is about to fall upon the whole earth. In the context of the Book of Revelation, it is the Tribulation found in chapters 6-19 that is this period of trial that is to fall upon the whole earth. It is from this period of trial that the Church is to be kept. This verse does not say that the Church will be merely kept safe during the trial, but it will be kept from the very hour of the trial, that is, from the very time of it. This requires a removal before the Tribulation ever occurs. If Revelation 3:10 only means that the Church will be kept safe during the Tribulation, then something goes terribly wrong. Throughout the Tribulation, saints are being killed on a massive scale (Rev. 6:9-11; 11:7; 12:11; 13:7, 15; 14:13; 17:6; 18:24). If these saints are Church saints, they are not being kept safe and Revelation 3:10 is meaningless. Only if Church saints and Tribulation saints are kept distinct does the promise of Revelation 3:10 make any sense. These passages of Scripture all state that the Church will be removed before the wrath, or the Day of the Lord, or the Tribulation comes. The removal will come by means of the Rapture of the Church. There are a number of other evidences for a Pretribulation Rapture which will be dealt with in another context. [...]
Another question that needs to be discussed is: When before the Tribulation does the Rapture take place? The Scriptures teach that the coming of the Messiah for the believer is imminent, that is, He can come at any time or moment.
[...]
While the earlier passages all clearly taught that the Rapture will precede the Tribulation, these last four passages teach that the Rapture is imminent; He could come at any moment. Only if the Rapture comes before the Tribulation can this be true. In Miduibulationism, the Rapture is always at least 3.5 years away. In Posttribulationism it is at least seven years away. [...]

I've never been to seminary, never trained formally in exegesis, and I recognize that some Christians can get distracted from keeping first things first by excessive focus on end times and all of that. But if you want to understand eschatology better, for the price of a couple Glock magazines you can buy a book which will help tremendously. Cards on the table, I have not read all 840 pages; I read it when I have questions about things, such as the questions raised in this thread. I'd say I've probably read half the book at this point.

You can get a lot of the content of the book from messages given by Fruchtenbaum that are available on YT for free. IME his writing is far more impressive than his speaking, but both are worth considering.

[Sailormilan2]

OP here with a couple of comments about some of the comments I read.
Not all post-Trib churches believe that after the Saints meet Christ in the air that they then come to Earth. Some believe that after meeting Him in the air, they then go to Heaven.
Second, my understanding (and I may not have it entirely correct), is that the "last trump" occurs at the end of Rosh Hoshana(Feast of Trumpets), and it sounds at the moment the first sliver of the New Moon is seen. Signifying the start of Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement.
Interestingly enough, there is a two day period during which Rabbis are searching for the New Moon, and this two day period is referred to as "no man knows the day nor the hours". Since nobody knows when the New Moon will be seen.
I'm sure we're all familiar with that term and who spoke it.
Perry Stone references it on his DVD. But, I first heard about it a few years ago when watching a video from Psalms 119 Ministry.

[RAMCLAP]

Another point of view.

https://amillennialism.wordpress.com/audio/book-of-revelation/kim-riddlebarger/