An Airtight Argument For The Existence of God.

[Just Dave]

open your eyes and look around. nothing exists in a permanent fixed state. everything is in motion.

in the past few months i have read ontological, teleological and cosmological arguments for the existence of the Christian god. none of the arguments converted me. even Kalām, and fun fact Kalām for all those who don't know, Kalām is short for "Ilm al-Kalam", Islamic science that defends and "proves" the Islamic faith through scientific means. the KCA is formed out of the original cosmological argument formed by Muslims. now the KCA is used by Christians who probably don't know they are using an argument created by Muslims who wanted to prove Islam as the one true faith (insert "the more you know" .gif here)

anyway, you are not going to convince me using a Kalām argument.

I'm talking about the state of being...not location

BTW I put this argument up because Bigmike82 put the challenge out on another thread. I figured it would be a good refresher for me too.

[mossy]

I'm talking about the state of being...not location

So am I. Permanent, unchanging existence is impossible. Everything and everyone is in constant movement.

[Just Dave]

So am I. Permanent, unchanging existence is impossible. Everything and everyone is in constant movement.

Except for God.
He's unchanging
He is
He was
He will always be.

You should study the attributes of God sometime, even if you reject Him.

As a matter of fact I think I'll take some time and restudy the topic, just for a refresher

[vliberatore]

In a nutshell

Something exist
Nothing cannot produce something
Therefore something must have always existed (permanent, eternal, fixed state, no beginning and no end)
The universe is something
The universe had a beginning (not permanent, not fixed state, not enternal)
The universe had to come from something...

This is just basic physics, logic and reason.

How do you know that the Big Bang is the beginning of the universe?

[Cnynrat]

How do you know that the Big Bang is the beginning of the universe?

He doesn't. It's merely an assertion that is convenient to his argument. Without the assertion that the universe had a beginning his argument crumbles.

[VAReact]

Except for God.
He's unchanging
He is
He was
He will always be.

You should study the attributes of God sometime, even if you reject Him.

As a matter of fact I think I'll take some time and restudy the topic, just for a refresher

There is evidence of impermanence and change. There is no evidence of anything being eternal.

[Just Dave]

He doesn't. It's merely an assertion that is convenient to his argument. Without the assertion that the universe had a beginning his argument crumbles.

Actually I just used the term loosely as I explained earlier. It's called relational language, when a person tries to convey a thought or idea he or she may use language that the intended audience is familiar with.
if you were to ask me if there was a literal big explosion that gave birth to the universe I would say no, the universe has order, explosions don't cause order.

Science has clearly shown that the universe did have a beginning

[hermosabeach]

Jump to a conclusion

Just take a look at the sun, the smartest most powerful human beings can't duplicate that from scratch.

So the most logical conclusion?
God.
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

God spoke the universe into existence...Think about this..the word "universe"
Uni=one
Verse=word.

discuss[/QUOTE]

You jump to a conclusion so it is not factual. God madethe universe...

The universe came from somewhere.... But where is the logic / science that it came from God???

What made God?

What power created something that could create matter from nothing?

[vliberatore]

Actually I just used the term loosely as I explained earlier. It's called relational language, when a person tries to convey a thought or idea he or she may use language that the intended audience is familiar with.
if you were to ask me if there was a literal big explosion that gave birth to the universe I would say no, the universe has order, explosions don't cause order.

Science has clearly shown that the universe did have a beginning

No it hasn't.

[Cnynrat]

Science has clearly shown that the universe did have a beginning

You keep making this assertion, but it's not true.

[Just Dave]

No it hasn't.

You keep making this assertion, but it's not true.

Prove it

[Cnynrat]

Prove it

No.

As the person making the argument it's your responsibility to provide proof that you're assertion is correct.

You have not done so.

[Just Dave]

No.

As the person making the argument it's your responsibility to provide proof that you're assertion is correct.

You have not done so.

All the evidence clearly points to the universe having a beginning. prior to the last century a lot of scientist signed on the the constant state theory.

Edwin Hubble http://www.biography.com/people/edwi...claimed-career
Radiation background echo http://www.space.com/25945-cosmic-mi...niversary.html
.

[Creampuff]

Here is the problem I have with your original post. Any other world religion can insert their belief and try to make the same argument. At that rate the Islamic belief can insert "Allah" and say..see airtight proof of Allah.

When it comes down to it, my belief that Christ is the Son of God, is faith.

You are using humanistic logic arguments to something where logic may not be the fundamental basis. If the argument was airtight, then there would not be a step of faith to believe in the Bible.
Is it logical that the Son of God would become man, and become a sinless sacrifice? nope!!

The other problem I have is this:
What if you won the argument? What if you actually were able to disprove the other arguments and showed that there is a God. But in the process of arguing you were right, but in all the wrong ways. And in being too arrogant in winning an argument, you turn off people to the Gospel? Then did you really win? I'll gladly lose an argument if they walked away knowing what the salvation gospel is really about. Please don't try to win an argument but turn off people to the gospel message in the process.

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

[vliberatore]

All the evidence clearly points to the universe having a beginning. prior to the last century a lot of scientist signed on the the constant state theory.

Edwin Hubble http://www.biography.com/people/edwi...claimed-career


Radiation background echo http://www.space.com/25945-cosmic-mi...niversary.html
.

None of that proves that the Big Bang is the beginning of the universe. It is just the beginning as we know it.