Off-Duty Carry Policy Help Needed ASAP!

[SoCalDep]

Hi all,

I need some help real quick...

I need to get as many department's off-duty carry policies as possible as soon as possible... Basically I need to know:

1. Department Name
2. What firearms are you authorized to carry off-duty?
3. Is there specific ammunition you must use?
4. Is there a certification/qualification course you must take to carry a specific firearm?
5. Is there a department inspection/armorer approval,etc. for firearms carried off duty?
6. Are you required to qualify periodically with your off-duty gun?

If you don't feel comfortable posting, PM me and I will give you my dept. email address.

I'd like as much info as I can get but I'm most specifically looking for those agencies that don't restrict the types of firearms for off-duty or have minimal restrictions.

I'm going to have to confirm all info officially with the department, but this will help give me direction on where to look because I'm on a big time crunch.

Thanks!!!

SCD

[Spyder]

PM sent.

[fullrearview]

Also look up HR218 LEOSA

[jaysen]

Hi all,

I need some help real quick...

I need to get as many department's off-duty carry policies as possible as soon as possible... Basically I need to know:

1. Department Name
2. What firearms are you authorized to carry off-duty?
3. Is there specific ammunition you must use?
4. Is there a certification/qualification course you must take to carry a specific firearm?
5. Is there a department inspection/armorer approval,etc. for firearms carried off duty?
6. Are you required to qualify periodically with your off-duty gun?

If you don't feel comfortable posting, PM me and I will give you my dept. email address.

I'd like as much info as I can get but I'm most specifically looking for those agencies that don't restrict the types of firearms for off-duty or have minimal restrictions.

I'm going to have to confirm all info officially with the department, but this will help give me direction on where to look because I'm on a big time crunch.

Thanks!!!

SCD

Hey brother, shoot me a reply with your email so I can verify and I'll send you over ours. My department only states that you must qualify with whatever you choose to carry off duty. There is a caveat that says Rangemaster can deny it however I have not heard of an instance where he has.

J

[mixicus]

PM sent

[SoCalDep]

Thanks for the replies and PM's so far! I'll be responding to all when I get home this afternoon... And as suggested... This is all about LEOSA.

[Ron-Solo]

Azusa PD used to have a very liberal off duty carry policy.

[hey_scooter]

Why the time crunch? I feel like this is the sort of thing you take your time with to make sure you get it right. Not saying it's on you, just genuinely curious.

[RickD427]

As someone who was responsible for policy-writing, both for my agency and in the military, here's a couple of quick tips:

1) Policy can be fast, good, or complete - You only get to have two of these things.

2) "Incident Driven" policy is never good. You need to have an expansive view of things.

3) Study the rules before you write any rules. Chances are that there is already some authoritative guidance on the subject you're writing about. Make sure that you understand how the existing authorities apply and that the policy you write is respectful of them (or take the necessary steps to change them).

4) It's really a bad idea to put words like "never", or "under no circumstances" into a policy. The purpose of a policy is to guide a decision maker as to how a decision will be made. Policy cannot make the decision for him/her.

5) Policy exists to strike a balance between the decision making prerogatives of your officers, and the need for standardization of practices. Make sure you identify the right balancing point.

6) It's good for all of your agency's policies to have the same "look and feel" and for them to follow a common doctrine. That way, if someone didn't memorize the policy manual just right, they'll at least have a good chance of guessing and getting it right.

7) Short policies are better than long policies. The same is true for policy manuals. The human brain can only memorize just so much stuff. (Special note to LAPD on this one)

8) Once you write a policy, circulate it for a review and ask folks to find ways to intentionally mis-interpret it. That review step will catch a lot of flaws before plaintiff's counsel finds them for you.

I'd also encourage you to review the case of Otis Peterson v City of Long Beach. The case is now superseded by statute, but it's a really good example of how a well-intended, but not really well-deliberated, shooting policy really came back to sting the Long Beach Police Department in civil court.

[SoCalDep]

The time issue doesn't involve the policy change in itself...if one occurs. In my agency there is a process that involves approval at various levels, committee meetings, council review, and policy evaluation. That will take significant time.

In this instance, we have the opportunity to initiate some possible changes where that ability didn't exist before. The stronger our case in the beginning, the more support we will have through the process. I've spent over a year gathering policy information from multiple agencies and legal information from federal and state sources but this went from basically a "yea...no" to "we need to be briefed in a week".

Thank you all for your help! I really appreciate it!

[RedVines]

As someone who was responsible for policy-writing, both for my agency and in the military, here's a couple of quick tips:

1) Policy can be fast, good, or complete - You only get to have two of these things.

2) "Incident Driven" policy is never good. You need to have an expansive view of things.

3) Study the rules before you write any rules. Chances are that there is already some authoritative guidance on the subject you're writing about. Make sure that you understand how the existing authorities apply and that the policy you write is respectful of them (or take the necessary steps to change them).

4) It's really a bad idea to put words like "never", or "under no circumstances" into a policy. The purpose of a policy is to guide a decision maker as to how a decision will be made. Policy cannot make the decision for him/her.

5) Policy exists to strike a balance between the decision making prerogatives of your officers, and the need for standardization of practices. Make sure you identify the right balancing point.

6) It's good for all of your agency's policies to have the same "look and feel" and for them to follow a common doctrine. That way, if someone didn't memorize the policy manual just right, they'll at least have a good chance of guessing and getting it right.

7) Short policies are better than long policies. The same is true for policy manuals. The human brain can only memorize just so much stuff. (Special note to LAPD on this one)

8) Once you write a policy, circulate it for a review and ask folks to find ways to intentionally mis-interpret it. That review step will catch a lot of flaws before plaintiff's counsel finds them for you.

I'd also encourage you to review the case of Otis Peterson v City of Long Beach. The case is now superseded by statute, but it's a really good example of how a well-intended, but not really well-deliberated, shooting policy really came back to sting the Long Beach Police Department in civil court.

Great post. Otis Peterson v City of Long Beach was an interesting read. Makes me glad we operate under a different legal framework regarding use of force post-Graham v Conner.

A little off topic but what would say the implications are for individual officers liability wise if their department policies are contradictory to state law?

[IlDuche]

Uh, do a lot of agencies restrict your off duty carry? And make you qual with whatever you carry off duty? What if you want to have a bunch of off duty carry options?! My warm weather gun, cold weather gun, compact, full size, wheel, semi..

[hey_scooter]

Uh, do a lot of agencies restrict your off duty carry? And make you qual with whatever you carry off duty? What if you want to have a bunch of off duty carry options?! My warm weather gun, cold weather gun, compact, full size, wheel, semi..

I feel like it's fairly common as far as modern law enforcement agencies go. Lots of agencies have restrictions on off duty weapons. Some of it is out of keeping commonality with weapon systems, calibers or other factors, some of it is legal concerns, others stem from policies put forth on standards and such. One department could just as easily say "your off duty gun is your on duty gun, tough cookies" and another could have a policy where if you successfully qualify with it, you can carry it.

[RedVines]

I feel like the off duty carry policy would depend on what the dept's policy is regarding officers taking police action off duty also.

[RickD427]

Great post. Otis Peterson v City of Long Beach was an interesting read. Makes me glad we operate under a different legal framework regarding use of force post-Graham v Conner.

A little off topic but what would say the implications are for individual officers liability wise if their department policies are contradictory to state law?

Red,

I'm not a lawyer, so I only give an LEO's perspective of an answer.

State law supersedes departmental policy. If there ever is a conflict, discovered prior to the officer taking action, the state law wins. In cases where the officer, in good faith, follows a policy that is later discovered to be in violation of a state law (this is where the plaintiff's counsel typically enters the picture), the officer is subject to a civil lawsuit. Officers can be sued in their professional capacity where their agency pays any judgment. They can also be sued in their personal capacity where they may be responsible for the judgment. I would expect such cases to end with the agency paying.