Ballistics Data

[JP1805]

I have just been appointed the Chief of Public Safety for a small private university in Southern California. I have to build the department from scratch and I am really looking forward to the challenge. The department is going to be staffed with six non-sworn, but fully armed, public safety officers. This is going to be the initial deployment. Later on I plan on adding some unarmed campus security officers and dispatchers to the department.

I am currently considering what caliber handguns to arm my officers with. I am leaning toward .45 ACP hollowpoints because my officers will be mostly working indoors in classrooms and dorms and I am really concerned with rounds overpenetrating a suspect and through the thin interior walls.

I am much less concerned with the make/model of the handguns. I am partial to Sigs because my duty weapon for the last couple of years has been the P220. However, in the past I have carried a Beretta 92F and a Smith and Wesson 4506 so I am familiar with the quality and reliability of those two manufacturers.

Can anyone give me some advice? Are there any studies that anyone knows of that show bullet penetration data?

[SoCalDep]

I would be much more concerned with missing the suspect and penetrating interior walls. Any decent handgun round will do so. The caliber has less to do with penetration compared to momentum combined with frontal area. a .45 is harder to shoot well, and depending on training time could result in more misses, which are much more guaranteed to penetrate interior walls compared to a hit on a person.

If I had to throw out an option, I'd recommend a 9mm in a mid-weight round if you don't expect much work around vehicles. The faster the round, the less likely for over-penetration, so a 124 or 127gr round at +P or higher velocity could be a bit better than a 147gr for highly populated areas. That said, I'm perfectly happy with my agency's choice of the 147gr 9mm round.

I think the firearm type is a big concern. You must deal with shootability (ability to qualify and hit in a gunfight), manipulation (training can instill competence in most any platform, but things like external safeties, DA/SA triggers, etc., make for a longer learning curve), liability (when there are ADs or difficulty in manipulating the firearm to solve a problem), durability, maintenance, etc.

I would look to who will provide training for your officers. If it is a local law enforcement agency, it might benefit to consider a similar/same platform in terms of the handgun. You could check with several local agencies to see if they have a particular type of handgun with specific issues or that works particularly well.

Good luck and fight for as much quality training as you can get for your people. Nothing can replace training.

[sunrisefordrene]

Can't say it any better than SoCalDep....

[AR15Man]

IMHO for a 45ACP I'd be comfortable with the 185gr JHP.

My Agency conducted extensive T&E and mandated a 45ACP round to be at least 1000fps and authorized this Winchester round;

Symbol: X45ASHP2
Caliber: 45 Automatic
Bullet Weight: 185 Grains
Bullet Type: Silvertip Hollow Point

Velocity (Feet Per Second):
- Muzzle: 1000
- 50yds: 938

Energy (Foot Pounds):
- Muzzle: 411
- 50yds: 362


I've long lost the white paper but the Navy Spec Warfare put out a great study dispelling the myth of interior building over-penetration of a 5.56 round.

The study was published in the early 1990s(?) if I remember correctly.

Here's a discussion of over penetration by two of the leading ballistics researchers in the U.S.

http://tacticalforums.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000369.html

Good luck Chief

[1911su16b870]

Welcome Sir!

Allegedly there is an FBI opinion issued indicating that current 9-mm is easier for folks to use (less recoil, smaller etc.), has higher capacity, and with todays duty rounds, have similar terminal ballistic performance.

Here is the link I posted asking if anyone here has the official FBI paper. I have not yet found a copy of the real FBI paper.

I would take a look at the skill level of the cadre and assess whether those with small hands can run the larger frame guns...it seems that the P226 , P320, HK VP 9, M&P 9 and G17 are good all around platforms for those smaller handed folks.

[mixicus]

Congratulations and good luck!

As for caliber, if you compare ballistic performance of the modern bullets within the same family (i.e. Winchester SXT or Speer Gold Dots) in the common LE calibers (9mm, 40S&W and 45ACP), you will see almost identical results. For the Winchester LE offerings look at their data, which mimics the FBI protocols:

http://winchesterle.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/pdf/Handgun%20Bullet%20Barrier%20Testing%20Protocol.pdf

Based on that, you can pick any of the 3 common calibers and the rounds will do fine from a ballistic stand point.

SoCalDep has some great thoughts in his post on other significant issues.

[micro911]

Any major caliber in good make will do the job. Penetrating walls and hitting innocent people on the other side of the wall is an issue with any agency deploying firearms. I prefer 9mm and any major manufacturer for firearms. Beretta, Sig, Glock, S&W etc. are all good. I depends on your budget, also.

My main concern in your department is the training level/proficiency of your officers. Obviously, most civilian officers have usually minimum of training required to become an armed security officers. I wonder what your requirement for the officers, and your annual training requirement for them will be. Especially, on campus that is crowded with students is also a concern regarding your shooting policy.

I think you caliber and firearm make is an easy part compared to complexity of making shooting/firearms policy for the agency.

[JP1805]

Thanks, everyone, for your help and advise. I really appreciate it!

[JP1805]

I would be much more concerned with missing the suspect and penetrating interior walls. Any decent handgun round will do so. The caliber has less to do with penetration compared to momentum combined with frontal area. a .45 is harder to shoot well, and depending on training time could result in more misses, which are much more guaranteed to penetrate interior walls compared to a hit on a person.

If I had to throw out an option, I'd recommend a 9mm in a mid-weight round if you don't expect much work around vehicles. The faster the round, the less likely for over-penetration, so a 124 or 127gr round at +P or higher velocity could be a bit better than a 147gr for highly populated areas. That said, I'm perfectly happy with my agency's choice of the 147gr 9mm round.

I think the firearm type is a big concern. You must deal with shootability (ability to qualify and hit in a gunfight), manipulation (training can instill competence in most any platform, but things like external safeties, DA/SA triggers, etc., make for a longer learning curve), liability (when there are ADs or difficulty in manipulating the firearm to solve a problem), durability, maintenance, etc.

I would look to who will provide training for your officers. If it is a local law enforcement agency, it might benefit to consider a similar/same platform in terms of the handgun. You could check with several local agencies to see if they have a particular type of handgun with specific issues or that works particularly well.

Good luck and fight for as much quality training as you can get for your people. Nothing can replace training.

Hi SoCalDep,

Thanks much for the info above. It has helped me a lot!

If I decide to go with 9mm, I am leaning toward issuing the S&W M&P 9. The officers will have his or her choice of the full size or compact version. I plan to issue Winchester Ranger ammo in the caliber I eventually choose.

Training will be my number one priority! I have been a trainer for the last 14 years so I understand how critical training is; especially for officers at a university who will most likely not be making many arrests or having too many uses of force. I am sure their perishable skills will degrade quickly so I plan to hold training classes once a month. As I am not yet a POST certified firearms trainer (I am an NRA certified trainer) I initially want my officers to train at and qualify at the San Bernardino Sheriff's Academy since it is closest to the university. However, I have not yet approached SBSO about it so I do not know if they will allow it or not or how much they would charge my department. I have several friends with Riverside SO who teach at Ben Clark so perhaps I can make a deal with them if SBSO turns me down.

[Che762x39]

I plan to issue Winchester Ranger ammo in the caliber I eventually choose.

Training will be my number one priority!

Chief congratulations.

We carry Winchester Ranger and the officers have their choice, 9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP, as long as they can qualify with it.

[BBB114]

You have to base it on the lowest common denominator. You have to choose a universal platform that will work for all, as you may have a large turnover rate or a vast pool of people applying for the job. Maintenance , replacement cost and availability etc play into it.
The good news is both Glock and M&P make great 9mm's!
Boyan

[SoCalDep]

Hi SoCalDep,

Thanks much for the info above. It has helped me a lot!

If I decide to go with 9mm, I am leaning toward issuing the S&W M&P 9. The officers will have his or her choice of the full size or compact version. I plan to issue Winchester Ranger ammo in the caliber I eventually choose.

We issue the M&P9 and it has been very satisfactory. The same can be said for our 147gr Winchester Ranger-T round. I own .45s and I enjoy shooting firearms of various calibers, but my go-to gun and duty weapon (that's sitting beside me right now) is an M&P9L with Surefire X300U and CTC lasergrips. I've trained thousands of law enforcement officers with the M&P and the darn thing works. I have two M&P9Ls, three M&P9s, a 9C, a Shield, and my wife owns a 5" Pro. I do love my Glock 19 though, so I'm not married to the M&P, though I do think it works really well.

Training will be my number one priority! I have been a trainer for the last 14 years so I understand how critical training is; especially for officers at a university who will most likely not be making many arrests or having too many uses of force. I am sure their perishable skills will degrade quickly so I plan to hold training classes once a month. As I am not yet a POST certified firearms trainer (I am an NRA certified trainer) I initially want my officers to train at and qualify at the San Bernardino Sheriff's Academy since it is closest to the university. However, I have not yet approached SBSO about it so I do not know if they will allow it or not or how much they would charge my department. I have several friends with Riverside SO who teach at Ben Clark so perhaps I can make a deal with them if SBSO turns me down.

San Bernardino SD has a great training staff and some awesome shooters. Their academy range is awesome...We used a couple of their bays and their 300yd rifle range for a carbine course and driving through their facility I was impressed. I recently took a TCCC class with the Army along with a couple of Riverside SWAT guys and they were good-to-go. Either organization will likely provide excellent training.

[003]

http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/

According to this article, the FBI made the decision to go back to the 9MM for daily duty.

[JP1805]

Thanks again for all the help, everyone! I appreciate it.