Question about giving assistance to an officer

[Bert Gamble]

I saw Ron-Solo's thread about the bystander who came to the aid of an injured officer and I have a question, but I did not want to thread-jack.

I think that most of us have a natural instinct to help another person, even if it means risking our own lives. I see it in the industry that I work in, where a person enters a poisonous atmospher and goes down, and their coworker goes in to help, only to become a victim as well. I am tasked with training people not to do that, but it goes against human nature.

A couple of years ago, the van I was rding in was the first to come upon a pedestrian hit and run, where a young girl was severly injured and needed immediate care. I was yelling at the driver to stop, but he would not. Others in the van, and at work explained that if we had stopped and I got out to help, I would have been killed by the angry mob that would soon form. This goes against everything that I am, but understand that it is also a reality.

When I see that a bystander helped an officer, it honestly restores some of my faith in humanity, but it causes me to wonder how much risk did that put the bystander in? Not just from the bad guy assaulting the officer, but also from those who would soon respond.

Without getting angry or defensive, can you give me an idea of how responding police might react, and if helping the officer would likely result in serious danger if the fight was still going on when help arrived.

There is no need for people who are not LEO to respond to this question

[Ron-Solo]

I've rolled up on many situations where a citizen was assisting a deputy in a fight. It's usually pretty clear, but if in doubt speak loudly and make it clear by your actions what your intentions are. If you use the deputy/officer's radio, use plain English and give them a description of yourself. Same if you are using a cell phone.

And, thank you for even considering it. Your safety is important too. At car accidents, be very aware of everything going on so you don't become another victim.

Aloha,

Ron

[Hot Holster]

I've rolled up on many situations where a citizen was assisting a deputy in a fight. It's usually pretty clear, but if in doubt speak loudly and make it clear by your actions what your intentions are. If you use the deputy/officer's radio, use plain English and give them a description of yourself. Same if you are using a cell phone.

And, thank you for even considering it. Your safety is important too. At car accidents, be very aware of everything going on so you don't become another victim.

Aloha,

Ron

If you are unsure as indicated in above, it wouldn't be a bad idea on approach to say "officer, do you need help".

[VictorFranko]

As a civilian, I have done a lot of training with a local cities police and SWAT team members. Also, over the years, I have had many good friends and acquaintances from various agencies.
I once asked an LAPD undercover detective friend, who's work usually had him riding alone, "If you found yourself in a gunfight and, as a civilian, I was able to convey to you that I was trained and was offering my armed assistance, would you want it?"

Mike's answer: "Hell yes!"

[1CavScout]

I was fighting a guy in the parking lot of a grocery store, and we were on the ground. A citizen jumped in and helped me get control of the guy I was fighting, but he announced loudly that he was going to help me before jumping in. I appreciated the help, and also appreciated him letting me know what he was doing before jumping in.

[Bert Gamble]

Thank you for the responses. I should mention that the hit and run was not in the USA. I work in Angola, and things are different here. That is why they wouldn't stop to help. Was still very hard for me to keep going.

[HisOwnHero]

If you ever do feel the need to jump in, I HIGHLY suggest announcing that you are there to help the officer and if plausible ask if he needs it (unless it's blatantly obvious that he or she does). Otherwise the officer might misconstrue another body in civilian clothes as coming to the aid of the suspect especially in this age where people feel it is okay to assault LEO's and or stand there video taping everything rather than calling 911 to get more help to the officer who can't get to his or her radio.

Another thing to keep in the back of your mind is civil liability. LEO's are well trained and granted limited immunity in terms of if they injure or kill someone during the course of their duties. If you jump in or shoot someone, you become liable to be sued in civil court for damages even if you do the right thing. Cops are often the target of frivolous civil lawsuits brought on by criminals and scumbags. They are represented by the city attorney or union attorneys such as PORAC and not on their own dime. You however would be on your own.

[CAguy]

I have done it before. When working as a bouncer there were big fights a couple of times and the local PD was way out numbered. I simply said "you need some help" and if they responded yes I would lend a hand, grab a fleeing suspect, or keep people back.

One guy was running (foot chase) one time and they (cop and suspect) came right past us and I was gonna reach the foot out and trip the guy up but I thought if the guy gets hurt I might end up on paper work. He caught him after about 10 yards and didn't want help with restraining the guy but did need help with securing some items that were on scene and keeping the crowd back.

It's pretty obvious if someone needs help but I would always verbalize, even in security uniform (but especially if in regular street clothes). One of my co-workers was not in uniform one night and we had a issue and he got a earful from trying to help out. After I told the cop he was with us he apologized and was glad for the help.

[Bert Gamble]

I have done it before. When working as a bouncer there were big fights a couple of times and the local PD was way out numbered. I simply said "you need some help" and if they responded yes I would lend a hand, grab a fleeing suspect, or keep people back.

One guy was running (foot chase) one time and they (cop and suspect) came right past us and I was gonna reach the foot out and trip the guy up but I thought if the guy gets hurt I might end up on paper work. He caught him after about 10 yards and didn't want help with restraining the guy but did need help with securing some items that were on scene and keeping the crowd back.

It's pretty obvious if someone needs help but I would always verbalize, even in security uniform (but especially if in regular street clothes). One of my co-workers was not in uniform one night and we had a issue and he got a earful from trying to help out. After I told the cop he was with us he apologized and was glad for the help.

Thank you.

I was not really concerned with the officer who needed the help. I assumed that the correct thing to do was to ask if help was needed. I was more concerned with the backups that would be arriving and not know that I was helping. I was wondering about my chances of being seriously injured or killed by well meaning officers who showed up while the scuffle was still going on.

The reason I ask is that my natural inclination would be to help, just like it would be to enter and attempt rescue on a person who was overcome in a confined space situation. I teach my students to think of themselves first, and not to become another victim. But to do that, you have to have a reasonable assessment of the risks involved to the rescuer. If the risks are acceptable, then rescue is the obvious step. That is why I am asking.

[WyattandDoc]

I like what guys are saying about announcing yourself first and asking if they need help.

Another thing to consider is: If there is anything going on where the responding cavalry could mistake you as another suspect, prone yourself out, KEEP YOUR HANDS VISIBLE and go along with what they tell you to do. You may even be handcuffed it it's a cluster. We can always take them off, brush you off and give you a huge heart felt thank you for helping our partner.

[Ron-Solo]

I had an incident where a bystander jumped in to help. We both got sued. The county represented him too. We won in civil court too.

[IrishJoe3]

I saw Ron-Solo's thread about the bystander who came to the aid of an injured officer and I have a question, but I did not want to thread-jack.

I think that most of us have a natural instinct to help another person, even if it means risking our own lives. I see it in the industry that I work in, where a person enters a poisonous atmospher and goes down, and their coworker goes in to help, only to become a victim as well. I am tasked with training people not to do that, but it goes against human nature.

A couple of years ago, the van I was rding in was the first to come upon a pedestrian hit and run, where a young girl was severly injured and needed immediate care. I was yelling at the driver to stop, but he would not. Others in the van, and at work explained that if we had stopped and I got out to help, I would have been killed by the angry mob that would soon form. This goes against everything that I am, but understand that it is also a reality.

When I see that a bystander helped an officer, it honestly restores some of my faith in humanity, but it causes me to wonder how much risk did that put the bystander in? Not just from the bad guy assaulting the officer, but also from those who would soon respond.

Without getting angry or defensive, can you give me an idea of how responding police might react, and if helping the officer would likely result in serious danger if the fight was still going on when help arrived.

There is no need for people who are not LEO to respond to this question

Bert, you're a good man.

I will say I have had several instances where a good citizen has willingly put themselves in harms way in order to help me when I needed it. Nothing helps remind me that there are still good people out there then selfless actions such as that.

In both of my cases the citizen loudly asked if I needed a hand rather than running headlong into the fray unannounced. A wise course of action.

I haven't experienced (or heard of) an instance where a good samaritan might be perceived as an attacker by respond units. If you were there helping me I'd be sure to make it very clear to responding units you're helping me and are a good guy!

You might be interested in Gary Gness' story. He was a former US Marine in route to work when he witnessed four CHP officers in a firefight with two felons in Newhall in 1970. He ran into the firefight, tried to drag one officer to safety and picked up a discarded shot gun and service pistol. He exchanged shots and managed to hit felon. Unfortunately all four officers were murdered, thankfully Gness survived.

Here's Gary in 1970 being recognized by the patrol.



And again in 2008 being hugged by two of the children of the slain officers.

[Bert Gamble]

Wow IrishJoe,

That is some story. Something just flew in my eye, or I have allergies.

I think that I have enough information to make the risk assessment for helping, and it appears that the only real risk is injury from the bad guy, but that should always be expected. As long as it is done correctly, it sounds like there would be little danger from other officers.

Thank you all

[mej16489]

This is a timely thread for me - not sure its relevant, but I'm a former LEO.

I spotted a CHP officer this morning while on my way to work about 1/4 mile ahead of me on a stop. Aggressive posture - shooting stance - he draws and is obviously yelling commands...

I moved to the far right lane and contemplated pulling in behind the CHP vehicle... As I'm moving over I was completely torn that I might make a bad situation worse by distracting the officer. As I made the decision to move into the emergency lane the officer holstered.

As I stopped he made eye contact and I gave a questioning thumbs up sign. He gave me a thumbs up in return and I pulled out.

[Ron-Solo]

I've had my butt saved more than once by the actions of a citizen. One time, I was fighting with three suspects in the middle of the intersection of Norwalk Bl and 215th Street on the Hawaiian Gardens/Lakewood border. It was 3:30 in the morning and I was working a 1 man unit, before we had handheld radios. I couldn't get back to the car and was fighting to keep control of my gun. I lost count of how many times I was kicked and punched. I just kept fighting back. A "Little Old Lady" who lived on the corner looked out her window and saw the fight. She called the station (pre-911) and said they should send some more cops because the deputy was losing the fight. I heard the assistance call come out on the radio, which helped me keep fighting because I knew help was on the way. To this day, I am grateful to that sweet lady.

There are ways to help without getting physically involved.