Sewer lateral intercept instead of pre dawn raid

[inbox485]

I was just thinking about this in light of another LEO fatality during a raid in Texas.

Obviously there is a time and place for everything, but specifically when the warrant is based on a fear of drug evidence being flushed, has anybody given thought to simply intercepting the sewer lateral instead of doing a no knock raid?

It would likely cost less than the broken door, flash bangs, etc., it would eliminate the risk of life from misunderstandings (real or fabricated), and if the drugs in question were flushed, they would simply be intercepted and attempted destruction of evidence would be tacked onto the charges.

Obviously this wouldn't work in all places, but in most residentials, the location of the sewer hookup is tagged and could be accessed and blocked in seconds with something designed to do so.

Just curious if this thought has been ever raised, or what people think of the idea...

[Exile Machine]

It'd be a dirty job but a pretty easy catch. Just drop a sewer worker into the manhole and have him put a receptacle under the hole where the lateral joins the main line. Then have the police knock and announce that they have a warrant.

-Mark

[inbox485]

It'd be a dirty job but a pretty easy catch. Just drop a sewer worker into the manhole and have him put a receptacle under the hole where the lateral joins the main line. Then have the police knock and announce that they have a warrant.

-Mark

That or even more direct would be a angled plate looking thing that you'd drive up to the grass line and slam right through the pipe. Anything flushed ends up on the front lawn...

[Exile Machine]

That or even more direct would be a angled plate looking thing that you'd drive up to the grass line and slam right through the pipe. Anything flushed ends up on the front lawn...

It can be difficult to locate the lateral though. For instance our lateral runs through the backyard to the main line in the alley. Took two years and probably half a dozen plumbers before anyone could locate the lateral. But the water & sewer dept would know where the main line runs in any neighborhood and could point out the proper lateral port...

I'm sure there are also effective chemical countermeasures too after a couple busts using this method, once the bad guys figured out what was happening.


-Mark

[code_blue]

This is under the uncertainty and assumption that the narcotics would be flushed.

[inbox485]

This is under the uncertainty and assumption that the narcotics would be flushed.

And would only apply if that were the main concern. My understanding is other "disposal" methods leave enough evidence to both prove what it was and charge with destruction of evidence. Am I mistaken on that?

It can be difficult to locate the lateral though. For instance our lateral runs through the backyard to the main line in the alley. Took two years and probably half a dozen plumbers before anyone could locate the lateral. But the water & sewer dept would know where the main line runs in any neighborhood and could point out the proper lateral port...

I'm sure there are also effective chemical countermeasures too after a couple busts using this method, once the bad guys figured out what was happening.


-Mark

Fair point. I know a lot of the housing areas where I live are 100% idiot proofed. There are letters etched into the curb marking sewer and water.

Just brain storming here. I'd get a real kick out of seeing some fool hear cops knock and announce and then giggle while the guy's stash comes splashing out on the front lawn...

[code_blue]

No, you are correct, but the same can be said for your scenario. If you consider the knock and notice process, the team would likely still kick down the door either from the time elapsed pursuant to the knock and notice or after seeing/hearing the potential destruction of evidence.

Due to this, I feel that the guy in the sewer would not reduce the safety risk of the Officers at all, but rather just the potential recovery of minimal evidence assuming that the bad guys flushed the narcotics with containers intact. They could easily slice the baggies open before they flush.

A warrant would likely not be approved solely on exigent circumstances of the narcotics being flushed. It would be based on the totality of evidence recovery vs risk involved. Your scenario would be a matter of articulating the absolute need to risk the safety of a civilian employee under the circumstances.

IMO, it would need to be a major drug bust where the particular evidence that would be flushed is crucial. With that in mind, the bust would have to be a large scale operation.

At that point, I believe that there would be sufficient evidence based on the totality of circumstances i.e. equipment, firearms, tools, etc... and they could probably afford to lose a few quantities of the contraband via flushing.

Such a large scale would already have the DA's office and/or the local DEA if not US DEA involvement. It's a good idea, but I just don't believe it is feasible for lower level cases.

This is just my opinion based on my understanding of what CA POST teaches and the experiences of my mentors. Then again, a request for search warrant is also just an opinion.

I'd say, if you can articulate it to the magistrate, then by all means.

[CBR_rider]

And would only apply if that were the main concern. My understanding is other "disposal" methods leave enough evidence to both prove what it was and charge with destruction of evidence. Am I mistaken on that?



Fair point. I know a lot of the housing areas where I live are 100% idiot proofed. There are letters etched into the curb marking sewer and water.

Just brain storming here. I'd get a real kick out of seeing some fool hear cops knock and announce and then giggle while the guy's stash comes splashing out on the front lawn...

It has been done before, but I don't know to what extent across the U.S. Biggest problem of course is that most (all?) narcotics are water soluble; as soon as they hit the water they start to go bye bye. Packaging can help preserve the dope in water, but it's not a fool proof plan. Also, at some point you actually have to go into the residence so it may/may not be all that helpful... Just lets the bad guys setup inside the house because they know the police are outside.

[swat]

Good point. Do you need a separate search warrant to tap someone's sewer line?

[Spyder]

Is it destruction of evidence before it is seized, or is it just destruction of personal property, albeit contraband personal property?

[sealocan]

How about an intercept at the United States border?

I know only a certain percentage get caught but if we put and vast majority our efforts into patrolling and intercepting at those drug routes. I don't just mean Mexico, but Canada & US Customs etc.. really tighten down the jar lid.

I mean anything is preferable to what amounts to basically lawful home invasion IF the warrant is served at the wrong location and innocent bystanders can get hurt.

I'm just a civilian so what do I know but wouldn't protecting the border Seriously make the prices of illegal drugs go through the roof ? (and of course then the drug users probably will do more bad things to be able to afford them,but whatever.
I'm not gonna even get into my "probation usually does not work well with humans." speech right now. but take a look at prisoners.. their rooms are searched, pat downs, x rayed & more, yet still they can get drugs & more.).

that just seems like the smarter way to go rather than kicking in hundreds of thousands of doors with no knock warrants and risking lives needlessly, on both Leo side and the general public side.
(which of course even in the best case scenario, would probably still need to take place but on a much smaller scale though.)
not trying to take away from your idea. I am also just looking for better solutions.

[SVT-40]

that just seems like the smarter way to go rather than kicking in hundreds of thousands of doors with no knock warrants and risking lives needlessly, on both Leo side and the general public side.
(which of course even in the best case scenario, would probably still need to take place but on a much smaller scale though.)
not trying to take away from your idea. I am also just looking for better solutions.

You might want to check your facts... There are not "hundreds of thousands of no knock warrants" served...

[inbox485]

You might want to check your facts... There are not "hundreds of thousands of no knock warrants" served...

Putting aside the number that was pulled out of his tailpipe, the number isn't zero or close to it, so giving thought to the concern is valid.

To that point, our border check points are pretty darn secure. Obnoxiously secure given how porous the rest of the border is, and that is a political divide that innovation won't fix any time soon. Drugs also aren't just imported. A lot of pot is domestic, a lot of meth was domestic until congress decided to outsource that to Mexico and treat people with allergies like methadone junkies, and a lot of designer drugs are domestic.

[IlDuche]

I work for a large city, and have never been on a "no knock" warrant solely for dope. Never. 0.

The only "no knock" warrants were for very dangerous & armed subjects. 187 types. And even then the warrant wasn't a dynamic entry. Call out.

These are not as common as people make them out to be.

[drtyhands]

Albeit there is one flush stored in each toilet tank. If your worried about losing evidence there would be less water to "Carry" product downstream if you just shut off water main at the street. You could sample lateral at your discretion for concentrations of chemicals, they're not going very far and the potency of sample would be obvious.