Response to "armed suspect" calls?

[penguinofsleep]

Popped into my mind today:

Short version: How do CCW holders not get injured/killed if someone mistakenly makes an armed suspect call on said CCW holder?

initial response to answers in post #9.

Thought out:
1. Significant increase of CCW applications. I assume most of these applicants will actually carry in some way or another.
2. Sooner or later someone is going to accidentally expose/reveal their piece that was supposed to be concealed in a less than ideal situation or public area simply because we are human and make mistakes.
3. General public of CA is probably not used to or even aware of CCW/carrying/this kind of thing. Many may get worried, nervous, or think CCW holder is the bad guy with some bad ideas that are about to be executed. Hence police is called, armed suspect reported. The quality of, amount of, and/or accuracy of info/report may not be great.
4. Not knowing what is actually going on, how would most of you and most of your colleagues respond? How is risk of injury/death to innocent civilians and CCW holders minimized while still ensuring your own and public safety?

This is important to me not because I want to be lax in concealment, etc if I get CCW. but simply because I think we've all read/heard of/know of at least a few incidents (and hence a few too many) where people have been wrongfully injured/killed by law enforcement for misunderstandings related to firearms/being armed/justified use of force. Not saying or implying that all LE is sloppy, looking for a fight, etc., but how would the average CCW holder CLEARLY, QUICKLY, and EASILY communicate to LE that they are not a/the threat in situations like this? Please give specifics if possible.

CLEARLY, QUICKLY, and EASILY as in our minds we are going about our day, doing nothing wrong, suddenly several LE pointing guns at you... better hope you act 100% right in what is probably a very confusing not to mention nervous moment. Even more so if there are conflicting commands going about, busy/distracting area (i.e. can't hear clearly), and even LE is jittery/pumped up/otherwise not in normal state of mind, etc. And again, I respect good LE, but it would be foolish for me to deny that even good LE make mistakes via the same human error that CCW holder may have made.

[TRICKSTER]

Don't be the "sooner or later".
I have carried a firearm everywhere I go since 1980 and I have yet to have someone see it when I didn't want them to.

[HPBrowningMK3]

Simple answer: dont act like a suspect.

[kermit315]

The circumstances are going to dictate the response.....a guy in starbucks during the middle of the day is going to get a different reaction than a suspicious armed person call in the middle of the night in a neighborhood.

Also, the way the person acts during the encounter is paramount. Listen and follow instructions, dont make yourself a threat, and dont act like a suspect, and you will be fine.

[ZirconJohn]

Tagged... mostly for Law Enforcement responses...

However, I've been carrying 24/7/365 for 11 years now and never had an accidental exposing of my carry.

One must be diligent in making absolutely certain of 'CONCEAL' - However, if Law Enforcement gets called on you, simply shut up, don't start yelling 'I have a CCW'... they already KNOW !!! - do not make sudden moves, follow instructions... and don't be a jerk.

Looking forward to Officer responses.

[micro911]

One time, my pistol came off the shoulder holster and dropped on the counter at a "Home Depot" type place. Everyone froze. I pulled out my ID and show them and told them I was an LEO. It was an embarrassing moment. I did not carry that holster ever again. OI it happens once, it can happen again.

Anyways, people were cool then and nothing happened.

[FLIGHT762]

Also, the way the person acts during the encounter is paramount. Listen and follow instructions, dont make yourself a threat, and dont act like a suspect, and you will be fine.

do not make sudden moves, follow instructions... and don't be a jerk.

This.

[omgwtfbbq]

Well in simple terms, if you handle your firearms correctly, including how you carry them, then you will likely never have to worry about such an incident. That being said I also think you give a little too much credit to the public in the situational awareness department. We have officers who leave their duty weapon on after work and go to the grocery store with just a t-shirt pulled over it and no one says a word.

To the majority of the population things like "printing" and tracking people's hands and waistbands are not normal behaviors, so more than likely a black boxy object seen out of the corner of the eye or at a glance is going to be attributed to something they are familiar with, say a phone case.

As to the question of confusion, the answer is simple. If you are contacted by police while carrying a firearm, don't do anything that would make you seem a threat.

Story time:

having only been with my department for about 6 months at the time this story ocurred, very few officers from the other local agencies knew who the hell I was. I was waiting for my supervisor outside the local LE range on a Saturday morning where were going to meet and do some drill practice and fun stuff like that. I was sitting sideways in the driver's seat with the door open with my feet on the pavement. I was wearing my weapon and badge. Two S.O. deputies roll up behind me. I'm not surprised by this, ironically the LE range is directly adjacent to a high crime area and I'm in my personal vehicle.

I felt I had two choices with the deputies approaching the vehicle, unholster my gun and leave it on the seat or stand up and stand up slowly, making sure to identify myself clearly while keeping my hands well away from my waistband. (also note worthy at this point is that the area where I parked was across the road from the range which is actually unincorporated county property so carrying a gun is permitted)

I chose the latter. I felt as an LEO if I rolled up on a suspicious vehicle call and when the "suspect" saw mine and my partners patrol vehilcles approach, he starts fidgeting and hiding stuff in the car, I'm probably going to be a little more amped up. I didn't want that.

I am now good friends with one of the Deputies I contacted that day. His reaction was pretty simple, he saw my gun first and then saw my badge and heard me state my LEO status and agency and it was all good from there. I know it's not exactly the same with CCWers but the logic is the same, don't be a threat, comply with instructions, and explain you legal status to carry as soon as possible.

[penguinofsleep]

Thanks for the responses so far.

Seems like the common thread so far is "don't mess up" and "don't act suspicious".

- Don't mess up - we are human. Murphy's law. It may never happen to me or anyone I know. It may happen day 1. As we have already seen here, it does happen. Now that it has, how do we make sure it stays a minor mistake?

- Don't act suspicious - please clarify. I'm pretty sure a lot of the people who have been injured/killed via similar misunderstandings were not acting "suspiciously" in their minds (or by the judgement of others) and still got injured/killed anyways.
I.e. 2010 Erik Scott in the Las Vegas Costco - granted I wasn't there to see how he really responded and this might be somewhat of a perfect store example (although this does not excuse the fact that he was killed) given the minor argument he had with his girlfriend earlier, the fact that it seems like everything that could have gone wrong behind the scenes at Costco for him did go wrong, and most importantly that LE responded quite poorly (gave conflicting commands, no time to react, etc) from my understanding. Examples such as this contribute to my asking of the question. Given his background at Westpoint and service in addition to his education, I would imagine an individual such as himself would at the very least have a decent understanding of "not acting suspicious" in a situation such as this.

- What is the typical response by LE (just in general, I realize specific situations will dictate further) or SOP that LE agents are given in their training? Hopefully knowing this and the rationale behind it can again help to prevent anyone from doing something "suspicious". Looking for things past "watch eyes and hands" or "establish control".

[Samuelx]

HPBrowning, Kermit, and Zircon summed it up already!

First additional peso,

The vast majority of LE Contacts with people do NOT result in uses of force. The vast majority of LE Detentions And Arrests do NOT result in uses of force. The vast majority of LE Detentions And Arrests made at Gunpoint do NOT result in shootings. The vast majority of LE shootings are NOT unreasonable.

Second additional peso,

Every CCW holder should already know what he/she should do, even without being "trained" - which is Nothing different than if/when I'm off duty and ever detained at gunpoint by other LEOs - I don't argue/debate with them and I do What they tell me to do, When they tell me to do it. IMO, anyone who can't figure that out (or can't follow that) shouldn't be carrying a firearm.

Btw, the whole Erik Scott incident is MOOT.

[micro911]

Until I personally verify the story or CCW license status, I will treat you just like any armed person I encountered in the past. Just follow the orders given. That should be fine.

[CBR_rider]

Easiest thing to do is whatever the LEO tells you. If you get roughed up/mistreated, there are legal options for you. If you decide you are being mistreated and decide not to go with the program, you could wind up dead..

[mikehtiger]

No sudden movements.

If possible, re-holster your weapon before LE arrives, if that means the suspect getting away so be it. If that means you and any other bystanders leaving the area where the threat is so be it.

Make sure your Concealed weapon is Concealed.

Follow all four firearms safety rules (This will make sure no one is lasered by your weapon causing officers to shoot)

Don't act unless it is the ONLY way to save your life or others.

I have been in a situation like this before. Armed robbery at a convenience store. I was armed with my LEO credentials with me. I did not act. I saw guns pointed at other victims, and I had a gun pointed at myself. I could have shot the guys and it would have been justified. I took the risk that the suspects did not want to shoot anyone, but would rather have my phone and $4 in my wallet. I made the right call. Suspects were arrested a few days later.

Long story short, I would not want to get shot because I'm holding some purse snatcher at gunpoint off duty.

[code_blue]

This is a tough one. A good rule of thumb is to not get involved with anything that you don't want to be involved with later.

If I was the active, uniformed officer arriving on scene then everyone is a suspect regardless of what they announce until ID is confirmed. Officer safety is paramount.

I am unsure if there are CCW or agency policies specific to this topic, but I would believe that it is up to the Officer arriving on scene.

[Mr310]

The vast majority of LE Contacts with people do NOT result in uses of force. The vast majority of LE Detentions And Arrests do NOT result in uses of force. The vast majority of LE Detentions And Arrests made at Gunpoint do NOT result in shootings. The vast majority of LE shootings are NOT unreasonable.

Now just tell them that in OT!


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