NYC driver beaten by motorcyclists

[yzErnie]

I wasn't there and won't second guess why he/they did not get involved.

I will say this though, as a retired career cop I'm guessing the mob (in their frenzie) would have turned on them as well and when they came after them with helmets flying and the off-dutys shot one or two of them people would be howling about that too. Sometimes you can never do the right things in some people's minds.

[Vin63]

...Vin63 - Any more recent cases? Most of those are 20 yrs. old - not that it matters from a precedence standpoint, but I'm curious because time and attitudes have changed a lot in those 20 yrs. Consider how much we've had to fight lately just to keep 2nd amend. rights.

[retired]

Half the reason the rest of them thought they could ride like that I they knew thy had their cop buddies to back them up.

Before you make statements like this, you had better have some evidence to back it up and you don't.

My gosh, If you are a LEO, I'm glad we never had any like you in my Dept. I don't mean to be rude with my comments,

Well you failed as you were rude. Personal attacks against members are not permitted on Calguns and an attack against an active or retired leo is also not permitted. This is true even if you are an active or retired leo yourself.

I would suggest some of you need to read the rules for this speciality forum prior to posting again, otherwise you will be banned from this forum. Since we do not want to ban any member from any forum, please do so.

As the article I read stated, the officials have said this is a complex investigation. It will take time to do it and if the investigation results in officers being found in violation of the law or their policy, they, the DA and the courts will decide what will be done.

Discussion of the event is one thing; comments about them getting off, coverup, etc. will just get you removed from this forum. I would surmise this investigation will be a long one due to the amount of people involved.

As far as the NYPD's policy that off duty officers must get involved in certain situations, Vin63 has already shown the US Supreme Court has said otherwise. Whether or not the PD can still discipline the officers for violating their policy in the presence of that decision remains to be seen.

I know when I went thru the academy, we were told our involvement could range from making a phone call to the local agency and up to using deadly force. We were not required to become involved physically tho and being a good witness was stressed. This was especially the case if we had family members present, tho I realize this probably isn't applicable in this motorcycle incident.

[infamous1979]

The investigation will be conducted and the truth hopefully will be found. As for him doing something or nothing, that has to be proven one way or another. Cop or not one person trying to diffuse a crazy situation like that, is tough. As for him hiding behind a lawyer or his rep, he is allowed to have representation, especially in a situation that Gloria Alred is involved with. I would lawyer up to protect myself....thats just smart.

[sternshot44]

I understand people expect an officer to do something even if he is off duty. But given the situation any LEO has to play out the scenarios in his head before taking action. If he were to go in there in street clothes identify himself as an LEO (plus if he is undercover like some versions of the story have read, it is likely he has nothing on his person to identify him as LE) you really think all those people who are already bashing away at a car, are just going to drop what they are doing and apologize? No, in my opinion and experience which is in now way or form a fact but just that an OPINION those other riders are just going to blow right through him and carry on, and the off duty LEO will most likely have been injured in the process. What people sometimes don't understand is in some situations the best way to help is to be the best eyewitness possible. I am in no way saying what the off duty LEO did was right or wrong, all i am saying is unless you were there and saw the incident occur first hand and know what those bikers are capable of then we cant say what the officer did is right or wrong.

As for the former Texas State Trooper, it saddens me that you are so quick to judge a fellow LE brother. You more than most should know things are not always what they seem or as the media portrays them to be. And should have confidence in the officer's judgement unless there is in obvious reason not too.

[Daveca]

I guess discussions are now censored to suit the opinions of those who don't agree with the idea that Police are there to Protect and Serve the people, but simply to do "what" they want "when" they want. Anything stated to the contrary is threatened with exile from the forum of discussions. I always thought that this is what discussions were for, people commenting their ideas and opinions, as we all have differences. I didn't set out to critisize anyone (LEO) for feeling as though they would have done nothing in the circumstances of the NY case , at least as we have heard those circumstances to be. I just said I'm glad I never knew any LEOs who would have stood there w/o assisting to de-escalte the incident, and glad we had no one I knew to be of that attitude. It's just all part of the discussion. I used to think LEOs were a little more thick skinned than to let a comment in a discussion "hurt their feelings." I guess some of them are like a lot of others these days. No matter what you say, someone is going to whine that a simple comment in a discussion hurts someone's feelings. If I hurt the feelings of the one who made the comment that they didn't see any need to act or assist, then I apologize for directing my statements at them. However, I stand by my position in general toward LEOs with those attitudes, just not any particular individuals. Many on here agree with me.
Also, while I don't know the case, other than what has been posted here, the Westminster case did not say the officers witnessed the stabbing. They saw the suspect go in and out of the laundromat, and minutes later found out about the stabbing. Since they didn't witness or know of or suspect the stabbing was about to occurr in the moments prior to it occurring, the Court said they had no duty to warn Davidson in advance of the man's conduct. That however, is not the case of the NY incident as it has been reported. If the cops had witnessed the Davidson stabbing and still done nothing, I think the ruling would have been much different. We will see as the NY case progresses because the facts of the case are so different.
I find it to be a shame that these forum are now telling people what they can or can't talk about. Next, they'll be trying to tell us what to think, a lot like
our fine President Obama and friends. Sound familiar?

[Daveca]

post

I understand people expect an officer to do something even if he is off duty. But given the situation any LEO has to play out the scenarios in his head before taking action. If he were to go in there in street clothes identify himself as an LEO (plus if he is undercover like some versions of the story have read, it is likely he has nothing on his person to identify him as LE) you really think all those people who are already bashing away at a car, are just going to drop what they are doing and apologize? No, in my opinion and experience which is in now way or form a fact but just that an OPINION those other riders are just going to blow right through him and carry on, and the off duty LEO will most likely have been injured in the process. What people sometimes don't understand is in some situations the best way to help is to be the best eyewitness possible. I am in no way saying what the off duty LEO did was right or wrong, all i am saying is unless you were there and saw the incident occur first hand and know what those bikers are capable of then we cant say what the officer did is right or wrong.

As for the former Texas State Trooper, it saddens me that you are so quick to judge a fellow LE brother. You more than most should know things are not always what they seem or as the media portrays them to be. And should have confidence in the officer's judgement unless there is in obvious reason not too.

You are right. I have no confidence in the Officer's decision, because he was wrong. Where does this guy draw the line? Let the guy get pulled from his SUV and simply beaten? Pulled out and stabbed, shot, murdered. At that point he didn't know what they were going to doto the guy, which is all the more reason to intervene. What if we were having this discussion today and they had not just beat him and slashed his face, but had murdered him? That could have easily happened here. No officer worth his salt, in my opinion should stand by and watch this happen. At least not where I grew up. Maybe NY is different, which takes me back to my point, I'm glad we didn't have gutless cops who were afraid to do their job. Even if he was working undercover, no undercover case is worth risking a citizen's life just to keep you cover. I'll bet the man and his family agree with me, and so would you in his situation

[Daveca]

I think these posts have said it all. Everyone has their own opinion. I'm just going to let it go at that.

[Ron-Solo]

[doctor_vals]

Held accountable for what? Participating in a mass violation of traffic laws? Sure, but you'd better be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he violated some traffic laws.

Held accountable for not stopping an angry mob intent on doing harm? There is no safe tactical solution to stop a mob like that, IF he was even present at the beating. He is not required to embark on a suicide mission when off duty.

Is he required to report to agency IMMEDIATELY what happen, when he was at crime scene? Why he wrote report 3 days AFTER? What he want to hide during these days?

[w55]

Mob attack was stopped by a 50 plus year old citizen on way to church. Its sad to see "its not Our job" type posts. I get that, its not my job to do alot of things but I do anyway. Reminds me of mindset certain bay area FD that asked 18 y/o women to go retrieve body cause "didn't have water training"

[smak28]

His 2yr old kid and his wife was in the car. I would do the same if my family was in danger. I would flee if my family was in danger.

[CBR_rider]

I don't know enough about where he was, what he did/didn't do, in what capacity he/she was riding in, etc to make a decision. Regardless, there are certainly some things ANYONE can do to at least attempt to diffuse the situation without indicating they are LEO (which in such crowds often means jack squat). But again, we all have no idea if any actions were taken or if the officer was in a position to take any, period. There is a huge difference between the off-duty officer watching the whole incident go down from five feet away to him rolling up on the assault as the crowd was dispersing.

[yzErnie]

Why he wrote report 3 days AFTER? What he want to hide during these days?

A simply assinine assumption on your part.

[retired]

I guess discussions are now censored to suit the opinions of those who don't agree with the idea that Police are there to Protect and Serve the people, but simply to do "what" they want "when" they want. Anything stated to the contrary is threatened with exile from the forum of discussions. I always thought that this is what discussions were for, people commenting their ideas and opinions, as we all have differences. I didn't set out to critisize anyone (LEO) for feeling as though they would have done nothing in the circumstances of the NY case , at least as we have heard those circumstances to be. I just said I'm glad I never knew any LEOs who would have stood there w/o assisting to de-escalte the incident, and glad we had no one I knew to be of that attitude. It's just all part of the discussion. I used to think LEOs were a little more thick skinned than to let a comment in a discussion "hurt their feelings." I guess some of them are like a lot of others these days. No matter what you say, someone is going to whine that a simple comment in a discussion hurts someone's feelings. If I hurt the feelings of the one who made the comment that they didn't see any need to act or assist, then I apologize for directing my statements at them. However, I stand by my position in general toward LEOs with those attitudes, just not any particular individuals. Many on here agree with me.
Also, while I don't know the case, other than what has been posted here, the Westminster case did not say the officers witnessed the stabbing. They saw the suspect go in and out of the laundromat, and minutes later found out about the stabbing. Since they didn't witness or know of or suspect the stabbing was about to occurr in the moments prior to it occurring, the Court said they had no duty to warn Davidson in advance of the man's conduct. That however, is not the case of the NY incident as it has been reported. If the cops had witnessed the Davidson stabbing and still done nothing, I think the ruling would have been much different. We will see as the NY case progresses because the facts of the case are so different.
I find it to be a shame that these forum are now telling people what they can or can't talk about. Next, they'll be trying to tell us what to think, a lot like
our fine President Obama and friends. Sound familiar?

My gosh, If you are a LEO, I'm glad we never had any like you in my Dept.

This is a direct attack against another member and I can't get any more clear than I was in my last post. You obviously did not take the time since I wrote my post to review the rules in the sticky near the top of this specialty forum or you would not have written what you wrote in this post.

You seem to be operating under the mistaken belief that you have a First Amendment right on this forum to write what you want. You are mistaken, as this is a private forum and you do not have that right. The owner has decided on the rules and the staff enforce them. If you don't wish to follow them it is certainly your prerogative to quit and begin your own forum that has no rules. While you are on this forum, you will follow the rules or there will be consequences.

One of those consequences is you are going to have a few days away from Calguns to think about whether you wish to follow the rules or not. I hope you make the decision to do so and we will go forward from there.