Home Defense question..

[taperxz]

OH BTW! The conviction rate for a 'bad shoot' in the OP's scenario is 5% statewide in CA. Generally speaking, as some more liberal counties skew the results.

[9mmepiphany]

And you need to remember that most LEO never got an education past high school. They are not lawyers either.

Thats why my LEO friends who i have known for 30 years still think that a loaded mag in a locked case with a firearm is still considered a loaded firearm in their eyes.

I don't know which department they work for, but I think it says more about your friends than LE in general...especially in CA.

When I retired a couple of years ago, I don't think anyone I knew didn't have some kind of college degree...that included a Ph.d, 4 MAs and 3 JDs

Our local PD required a BA to even apply to the department.

When I joined the SO, 30+ years ago, everyone had at least an AA/AS

[taperxz]

I don't know which department they work for, but I think it says more about your friends than LE in general...especially in CA.

When I retired a couple of years ago, I don't think anyone I knew didn't have some kind of college degree...that included a Ph.d, 4 MAs and 3 JDs

Our local PD required a BA to even apply to the department.

When I joined the SO, 30+ years ago, everyone had at least an AA/AS

In todays standards an AA/AS is like junior high. Don't get me wrong i am almost 50.

People i am referring to are SFPD and San Mateo SO respectively along with municipalities in San Mateo County. LOTS of behind the times and misinformed LEO IMHO.

My information came from the DA of our county. NOT a deputy DA but the DA himself.

[taperxz]

I don't know which department they work for, but I think it says more about your friends than LE in general...especially in CA.

When I retired a couple of years ago, I don't think anyone I knew didn't have some kind of college degree...that included a Ph.d, 4 MAs and 3 JDs

Our local PD required a BA to even apply to the department.

When I joined the SO, 30+ years ago, everyone had at least an AA/AS

Not to get to off topic... I think LEO's were smarter and better equipped mentally when they were NOT legal eagles who thought they were lawyers.

Thats just my personal opinion though. I think today, cops with legal degrees are a danger to our society because they are trying to practice law as an LEO.

Thats bad IMHO

[adchrome]

I might, but I'd want to be sure before I fired. I've had the hammer on a revolver more than half-way back, when an armed drunk finally stopped coming toward me. Believe me, I was happier then he was that I didn't have to shoot him that night

There are other legs that your actions will be judged on.

1. Was there indeed a real danger?
2. Was the reaction reasonable?
3. Did the shooter take steps to insure that his actions were reasonable?

The interesting thing is that it isn't for you to answer these questions, but it may be up to a jury, either criminal or civil, who will have the time to consider you actions as Monday Morning Quarterbacks in the comfort and safety of a jury deliberation room. What light will they see you in when they find that you didn't even try to positively identify your target...by even just shinning a flash light at them, or turning on the room lights... before firing.

I'd be much more worried about the civil consequences than the criminal...they only have to convince 2/3 of the jury that you were negligent

after reading CALCRIM instruction 3477 that a member posted I can see where you are coming from,

I will definitely get the Flashlight put on my weapon, after thinking about this more he could not break the B/R door down while taking aim at the light in his eyes,

yea no way to tell which way a Jury would go but all that matters to me is my wifes safety.

its a crying Shame that an intruder has more Rights than a Home Owner Defending his home

[RedVines]

Not to get to off topic... I think LEO's were smarter and better equipped mentally when they were NOT legal eagles who thought they were lawyers.

Thats just my personal opinion though. I think today, cops with legal degrees are a danger to our society because they are trying to practice law as an LEO.

Thats bad IMHO

Taperxz are you a cop or a lawyer? I'm having a hard time following the logic behind your personal opinion.

[Notorious]

Open carry would have prevented this.

[Notorious]

Not to get to off topic... I think LEO's were smarter and better equipped mentally when they were NOT legal eagles who thought they were lawyers.

Thats just my personal opinion though. I think today, cops with legal degrees are a danger to our society because they are trying to practice law as an LEO.

Thats bad IMHO

ORLY?

As a cop who became a lawyer and went back to being a cop, and was valued as a cop who had a better insight into the system and ancillary considerations of our actions, I don't think you have a clue at all. I gave legal updates and briefings to the department as well as provide advice to the higher ups when new legal developments come around. My reports are thorough and detailed, don't get kicked back from the WC, and I enjoy a good reputation with the local D.A. when it comes to filing.

I have other friends who are also cops with law degrees as well as cops who have their law license, making them lawyers as well. They are all very valued in their departments and have never done boneheaded things or endangered the public by practicing law while on duty.

Do you know that having a law degree alone doesn't entitle you to practice law in any capacity? As a matter of fact, practicing law without a law license is a crime in every state in this union.

Why don't you stick to something you know about instead and leave the rest of this to the ones who actually know.

[CBR_rider]

adchrome,
I think what 9mm and some of the other LEO's are trying to suggest is that though your actions in your initial scenario would likely pass muster to keep you out of criminal court, why not consider a few simple steps to drill/think about NOW that could help keep you from at least paying out in civil court (light on/with your weapons system, identifying target first, etc).

As an interesting drill, set up your house one night like it would be when you go to sleep. Then take whatever light you are going to use (whether its a tac-light for your shotgun or an actual flashlight) by itself and have someone (maybe your wife the first time and then you as the second time) act like the "bad guy" and enter your bedroom in total darkness. Have the "victim" hit the "bad guy" with a quick on/off beam of light. Then count how long it takes you to be able to see again. You will be amazed at how effective you can use light to your advantage in such a situation.

[CBR_rider]

Not to get to off topic... I think LEO's were smarter and better equipped mentally when they were NOT legal eagles who thought they were lawyers.

Thats just my personal opinion though. I think today, cops with legal degrees are a danger to our society because they are trying to practice law as an LEO.

Thats bad IMHO

What are you talking about?

[adchrome]

adchrome,
I think what 9mm and some of the other LEO's are trying to suggest is that though your actions in your initial scenario would likely pass muster to keep you out of criminal court, why not consider a few simple steps to drill/think about NOW that could help keep you from at least paying out in civil court (light on/with your weapons system, identifying target first, etc).

As an interesting drill, set up your house one night like it would be when you go to sleep. Then take whatever light you are going to use (whether its a tac-light for your shotgun or an actual flashlight) by itself and have someone (maybe your wife the first time and then you as the second time) act like the "bad guy" and enter your bedroom in total darkness. Have the "victim" hit the "bad guy" with a quick on/off beam of light. Then count how long it takes you to be able to see again. You will be amazed at how effective you can use light to your advantage in such a situation.

Thats a Great idea, I will for sure try that, along with drills for Different scenarios Regarding time of day, I realize it does not always happen while asleep.... yea i understand the point 9mm and some of the others make,

Thanks all of you for the insight, very informative, and Sorry this turned into a Lawyer vs. Leo Discussion

[nine mil thrill]

...... saying that you are armed.....just doesn't get the job done to a freak that is bulldozing his way into your home. i would fire one round into the ceiling. this absolutely lets the intruder know that you have a OPERATIONAL firearm. secondly, this serves as a OPERATIONAL check to assure you that your safety is not on, and your weapon works. third.....after hearing a weapon fire, and the intruder still insists on knocking down your door, this will eliminate all hesitation and doubt on your part that the person is NOT OF RIGHT MIND, on needs to be violently terminated.

[Dantedamean]

I'm amazed more people haven't posted the PC for the intruder breaking down the door. I don't know it off the top of my head but there is a PC that says if someone beaks down your door/Window there is automatically a presumption of a threat of great bodily harm or death. So you can legally use deadly force whether armed or not. Obviously there are limitations to that but in the scenario you gave I would have no problem shooting.

Now as far as the light goes, get one. If your hold up in a room and announced your armed you already gave away your position, having a light will not only help you identify your target, it will also blind them and temporarily throw them off, giving you a few more precious seconds to act.

[Notorious]

What are you talking about?

He has no idea either.

Thanks all of you for the insight, very informative, and Sorry this turned into a Lawyer vs. Leo Discussion

Don't be sorry. Not your fault he is an idiot.

[Notorious]

...... saying that you are armed.....just doesn't get the job done to a freak that is bulldozing his way into your home. i would fire one round into the ceiling. this absolutely lets the intruder know that you have a OPERATIONAL firearm. secondly, this serves as a OPERATIONAL check to assure you that your safety is not on, and your weapon works. third.....after hearing a weapon fire, and the intruder still insists on knocking down your door, this will eliminate all hesitation and doubt on your part that the person is NOT OF RIGHT MIND, on needs to be violently terminated.

I seriously hope you are joking. Where do you think the round goes when you shoot it into your ceiling? You got a lot of stuff up there that can stop a bullet or do you just want extra ventilation and water drainage into your room?

You might as well take your double barrel shotgun out to your balcony and fire two rounds into the air or shoot a round through your door. Your advice is about as good as Uncle Numbskull Joe Biden.