Magazine question.

[DLEONARD13]

I would like to get the LEO point of view on this question.

What is commonly considered "permanently altered" in regards to magazines. (This really applies to 10/20 and 10/30 magazines)

I know that rivets, pins, and epoxy are being used; these options may and do interfere with the disassembly of the magazine.

There are also options of using magazine blocks/limiters; are these considered permanent in the eyes of LE?

You can also reference this thread which discusses more of the purpose behind my question.http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=687430

[Notorious]

Magazine blocks are being sold in this forum and nobody said anything otherwise about it being legal.

From the reading of it, when you disassemble the mag, it's a parts kit, when you assemble it with the blocker, it's a compliant mag. At no time does it exist in illegal form if you always have the blocker installed. I don't find any fault with that reasoning... but that's just me.

[Librarian]

There is simply no definition to rely on, and AFAIK no method has been tested in court.

[DLEONARD13]

Thanks for the responses, I am just trying to cover my bases when it comes to assembling my parts kits. But I would still like to retain the ability to disassemble for cleaning/repair.

[SVT-40]

To me the definition of permanent is pretty self explanatory. If you can change it back into a mag which holds more than ten rounds it's not permanently altered.

[DLEONARD13]

That was my understanding, however if we take this concept to pistol magazines a XD 16rd magazine can be used if the 10rnd limiter is installed and I havent seen these epoxied and or riveted.

[CBR_rider]

I wouldn't want to be the test case (which fortunately I CAN'T be), but I'm not really sure how you can permanently alter something like a magazine yet allow it to be taken apart for cleaning.

[SVT-40]

That was my understanding, however if we take this concept to pistol magazines a XD 16rd magazine can be used if the 10rnd limiter is installed and I havent seen these epoxied and or riveted.

Check out any factory made 10 round magazine. You will find it's virtually impossible to alter them to accept any additional rounds without destroying the mag.

So pistol or rifle it makes zero difference. If the modification to accept only ten rounds can be undone then it's not "permanent".

[DLEONARD13]

I wouldn't want to be the test case (which fortunately I CAN'T be), but I'm not really sure how you can permanently alter something like a magazine yet allow it to be taken apart for cleaning.

I dont want to be a test case either, thats why I'm asking for these opinions.

I ulitmately will make my own descision that I feel comfortable with that could have me spending TIME and MONEY defending in court.

So pistol or rifle it makes zero difference. If the modification to accept only ten rounds can be undone then it's not "permanent".

Would you consider a rivet placed into a 30 rnd PMAG a permanent modification? (Consider that the rivet does prevent the follower and potentially the spring from being removed.)

Because I can take a drill and remove the rivet allowing disassembly and modification back to a 30rnd magazine. (Which of course is a violation of the penal code, "manufacturing")

Would you consider a magazine block floor plate epoxied to the spring to be permanent? Or would the epoxy even be required?

I guess all I really was looking for was a definite answer as to whether or not I would be arrested on the spot, if an LEO determined that a mag block with or with out epoxy or a rivet meets the penal code definition of permanent. Or to what extent a LEO would potentially investigate it meeting the penal code definition of permanent. i.e. potential disassembly...

Or is the LEO only going to attempt or have me attempt to load 11 rounds, and when only 10 go in say "have a nice day".

I tried to ask DOJ and my local DAs office for guidance and got no results.

My safest bet here is to just use 10rnd mags in my AR and avoid the whole argument, the thing is 10/30 magazines are not illegal, they facilitate easier changing, and yes make the firearm look a whole lot better... um... I mean evil... nope had it right the first time.

Thoughts?

[SVT-40]

Think simply.

Permanent is a simple concept.


If it can be taken apart and reassembled into a magazine which holds more than ten rounds after it's converted into a ten round magazine it's not "permanent".

Forget all the what if's and why not's.



One issue you may not have thought of when using a so called 10/30 or 10/20 magazine. This may give an officer probable cause to inspect your rifle to be sure it is legal. Remember using a mag over ten rounds in a mag locked semi-auto is a crime in Ca.. The only way a officer can be sure you are not in violation is to preform an inspection, of the rifle and magazine.
When using a real ten round mag you do not have this issue.


So why go to the trouble and risk . ten rounds are ten rounds.

[CBR_rider]

My thoughts:

- I have NEVER checked someone's mag capacity simply because I could.... every magazine I have seized with a capacity of over ten rounds was because someone either: a) did something stupid/illegal with the weapon (and the magazine was already in/attached to the weapon) or b) was prohibited from having it in the first place (such as a dope dealing parolee at large).

- Again, like I said earlier, I am not sure how one can have a permanently altered magazine but still be able to clean it (I would assume this would be recognized by the courts as being something which must be done, at least occasionally, to allow the magazine to function properly and safely). I know it is a different set of rules, but for instance when hunting with a shotgun one must use an insert in the tube to limit the amount of shells in the shotgun. This does not have to be a permanent modification and I have never heard of someone being charged with a violation of this section while taking apart their shotgun for cleaning/removing an obstruction from the tube (while hunting).

- One is allowed to possess (for now) the parts to create a "high capacity" magazine when the magazine is disassembled. But, I am no lawyer and know of no similar cases which could help you decide which way to go any further than what we have discussed regarding how "permanent" the modifications to the magazine to restrict the capacity have to be. It would seem that the argument that if your magazine, when assembled, cannot be altered in anyway to accept more than ten rounds you should be fine. By this same argument (against using plastic followers/rivets/etc to limit magazine capacity) all AR's could potentially be "assault" weapons because when disassembled I could re-assemble it without the bullet button... but logic certainly seems to be lacking in this area of criminal law more than most. And don't get try to tell me that the attempt AW case that everyone is crying over in the 2nd Amendment forum is close to this.. its not. You are not a felon, are not on probation, you possess all proper items to create a legal item, and you are not saying that you are going to manufacture a "high capacity" magazine.

- IMHO and non lawyerly opinion, if you don't do anything stupid with your weapons or anything stupid while carrying your weapons you should be fine. I'm not really sure as an officer why I would push my legal authority to order you to take apart your magazine to check whether or not it can hold more than ten rounds if I simply saw you at the range or stopped you coming from some legal place with the magazine. Seems like a very CS way to get myself potentially embroiled in a drawn out criminal case over a stupid(potential, as in if it turns out to be a "high capacity" magazine) violation.

[fvgunguy]

I second CBR rider... If I had to check it would be capacity only...

[Notorious]

I think I would have more than enough on my plate to bother with a CS crime as whether or not a magazine might be able to hold over ten rounds if assembled WITHOUT a blocker which the owner has inside when it was assembled.

[DLEONARD13]

You are not a felon, are not on probation, you possess all proper items to create a legal item, and you are not saying that you are going to manufacture a "high capacity" magazine.

No I am not and I want to keep it that way, nor do I want to manufacture "hi-caps".
I am a law biding citizen who is and will contnue to be a responsible gun owner and advocate who wants to meet the letter of the law.

And by understanding the laws that govern not just "the firearm" ownership aspects but all aspects that have an effect on said ownership makes me a more responsible owner.

Obviously 10 rounders are the safest bet, but like others have said if you are not doing something stupid what is there to fear

If you are not informed then you are doomed to failure.

Failure = Felony (potentially)

Felony = NO GUNS

Thank you to all for your insight in to this question, there is no doubt in my mind that the penal code is not exactly crystal clear.

As the definition can even be observed differently as well.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/permanent

Definition of PERMANENT
: continuing or enduring without fundamental or marked change : stable

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/permanent

[Quiet]

IMO...
If I can disassemble it without using tools, then it's not permanent.