LEO Firearm law exemptions.

[Mike-4]

I've been retired for two years, and live 60 miles from the nearest area that I worked. I have run into arrestees, or their relatives, on several occasions. Anytime I go into areas I worked, I am always armed.

Having worked the same station as "Armed24/7" over the years, I know exactly what he is talking about.

Hell, living in San Jacinto, I'd be armed 24-7 too J/k, I know there are good folks there too

[LibertyDeath]

So where can LE covered under LEOSA carry that CCW holders cannot and vice versa, if applicable?

Also would reserve LEO's also fall under PC 25450 and be allowed to carry in CA regardless of what LEOSA says? Also what does (e) mean? Does that mean an off duty federal law enforcement officer can legally carry in CA but only if they a based out of CA, or does it mean they must be on duty? I know they are covered under LEOSA anyway but the wording on the section is kind of weird.

25450. As provided in this article, Section 25400 does not apply
to, or affect, any of the following:
(a) Any peace officer, listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2, or
subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, whether active or honorably
retired.
(b) Any other duly appointed peace officer.
(c) Any honorably retired peace officer listed in subdivision (c)
of Section 830.5.
(d) Any other honorably retired peace officer who during the
course and scope of employment as a peace officer was authorized to,
and did, carry a firearm.
(e) Any full-time paid peace officer of another state or the
federal government who is carrying out official duties while in
California.
(f) Any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in
making arrests or preserving the peace while the person is actually
engaged in assisting that officer.

[Sacmedic]

SheepDogShepard-

You are correct, the PC seems to intend that they can, but section 830.5(c) is rather contradictory. As with just about every issue surrounding peace officers and off duty carry, the agency can/may/will take admistrative action against someone who violates their internal policies. The PC and LEOSA give the officer criminal protections but not protection from internal discipline. That issue would be addressed in a labor dispute/grievance/lawsuit situation where the agency and officer's attorneys would end up debating the ability of the agency to regulate off duty conduct. RickD427 has some good cases listed in his above link. There has to be a finite point where a public employer ceases infringing on the employees off duty conduct, but each court finds that point separately. Think about this one...can the employer of a peace officer prohibit the otherwise lawful activity of hunting game by its' employees when they are off duty?

[Sacmedic]

LibertyDeath-

Regarding PC 25450(b), the only requirement is that they be a peace officer. As stated by many previous posters in this thread the officer may still be subject to internal agency discipline if they forbid the practice, but they are in compliance with the penal code if they choose to do so.

[RickD427]

Sacmedic,

You've got good points in both posts above. There is a difference between law and policy. There was a case several years ago, unfortunately I did not keep a copy and cannot provide a citation. It involved a Los Angeles County Safety Police Officer (the agency is now defunct, its officers were peace officers) who was serving a period of suspension from his employment, during which he was carrying a concealed weapon. This occurred before LEOSA was enacted. The D.A. filed criminal charges on the theory the officer was only a private citizen during his suspension from duty. The court tossed the conviction noting that the state provided peace officer status, the county provided employment. The county suspended employment, but the state never removed the peace officer status that allowed him to carry. The court also noted the county could discipline the officer for violating policy, it just could not prosecute him for violating the law.

[Ron-Solo]

When LASD suspends someone, they are served with written notice that during the period of suspension, their peace officer status is also suspended. As a watch commander, I got to serve many such documents over the years.

[RickD427]

When LASD suspends someone, they are served with written notice that during the period of suspension, their peace officer status is also suspended. As a watch commander, I got to serve many such documents over the years.

Ron,

I've served the same notices. The exact text of the form in current use states "action in the capacity (of a peace officer) is prohibited." The Sheriff can give that order to his personnel. The Sheriff cannot take away peace officer status. That status was given by the state and only the state can take it away. That was the focus of the Safety Police case.

[Ron-Solo]

Yeah, but I sure wouldn't want to be the test case.

[RickD427]

Yeah, but I sure wouldn't want to be the test case.

Ron,

Remember this point only addresses the criminal conviction. The officer who violates the order given in the admonishment is probably going to get fired. In the long run that's a much greater sanction than a misdemeanor conviction (assuming the officer's weapon is registered).

[Notorious]

So the peace officer status is given by the state but only valid upon employment with an authorized agency, so during the term of suspension, but still employed, the person is still a peace officer since the employment is still there?

Wait... this means if we are putting someone on leave pending termination, and it's going through the process... which can take up to a year or so... and we take the creds away, that person can still carry and only be subject to administrative action... which he is already under for termination anyway?

[Sacmedic]

I think you are correct Notorious. It's crazy, I know.

[Armed24-7]

So the peace officer status is given by the state but only valid upon employment with an authorized agency, so during the term of suspension, but still employed, the person is still a peace officer since the employment is still there?

Wait... this means if we are putting someone on leave pending termination, and it's going through the process... which can take up to a year or so... and we take the creds away, that person can still carry and only be subject to administrative action... which he is already under for termination anyway?

This might be the case, I am not 100% sure. But a peace officer would be stupid to do such a thing because normally, when a peace officer is suspended for something major and termination is pending, their badges, I.D. card, and duty weapon gets taken away. If they get stopped by law enforcement and unable to produce proof they are a "peace officer", they would cause big problems for themselves. Especially if this suspended officer planned on appealing his/her termination with the civil service commission, which happens quite often.

However, I understand your opinion and I agree. If a peace officer does something stupid enough to be terminated, I don't think he/she should be carrying.

[RickD427]

So the peace officer status is given by the state but only valid upon employment with an authorized agency, so during the term of suspension, but still employed, the person is still a peace officer since the employment is still there?

Wait... this means if we are putting someone on leave pending termination, and it's going through the process... which can take up to a year or so... and we take the creds away, that person can still carry and only be subject to administrative action... which he is already under for termination anyway?

Notorious,

I think that Sacmedic and Armed 24-7 hit the nail on the proverbial head.

I know that can take a year or two to process a termination case in my agency, but when you look at the reasons why it takes so long, most of the reasons are "self-inflicted" by the agency. The termination process could move much faster if we chose to make it so. In my first department (12 officers) we processed a termination case in about three weeks (from decision to the Skelly hearing). Granted that was a long time ago and I'm not an expert on employment stuff, but there is no requirement for the process to take years.

[Notorious]

We had a few recently and the time it takes can add up from all the factors like the time it takes to complete a comprehensive IA with a lot of witnesses, going through the internal process with scheduling meetings and Skelly with the LDF lawyers, agreeing on and scheduling an arbitrator to hear the case after the Skelly, conducting the hearing, writing the brief post-arbitration, and then waiting for the final decision which then is acted upon by the final authority.

[lavey29]

When LASD suspends someone, they are served with written notice that during the period of suspension, their peace officer status is also suspended. As a watch commander, I got to serve many such documents over the years.

Hence the reason for always having an extra xerox copy of your flat badge and ID.