past standard issue pistols

[madcow]

Maybe a dumb question that dawned on me whilst watching a dirty harry flick last night. Why is it that the majority of past LEOs carried revolvers instead of autos? Agreed that revolvers are inherently more reliable than autos but I would think that round count is equally important. Was it as simple as a cost issue? Availability? Quality control?


Just a curious civilian

[9mmepiphany]

Mostly tradition...there is a lot of inertia in large agencies...and mostly following the lead of larger departments or the FBI.

While capacity is one thing, an interesting observation is that when many departments changed over from the revolver to a semiautomatic pistol, qualification scores went down and most departments shortened the longest range that officers needed to qualify at.

[ap3572001]

I carried a Smith and Wesson revolver (still carry them off duty sometimes).
Shot PPC with revolvers ( out to 50 yards)

Carry Glocks now. (9mm and .40)

Also shoot them out to 50 yards.

[P5Ret]

keep in mind that most decisions about spending money on issue equipment (guns in particular) are not made by the people with the most knowledge in the subject. They may listen to suggestions, and recommendations but the final decision is going to be based on cost. You also have to train to the lowest factor. back before the late 70's early 80's there wasn't a whole bunch of choices in autoloaders. Especially what department heads who always have concerns about liability considered safe enough for every officer to carry. Even the FBI did not fully convert to auto's until the late 80's. Remember the Miami shootout the majority of the agents had wheel guns, and that was April of 1986.

[003]

First and foremost, you didn’t indicate the time period you are talking about. Prior to the 1950’s, the only two semi auto pistols worth using were the 1911 and the browning high power. Given the cocked and locked issues with both, it is not hard to understand the reluctance of police administrators to approve their carry.

Consequently, just about every police agency in the country carried revolvers because there were no real options. I do recall reading about some old time Texas Rangers that carried 1911’s, and a few local Police Departments did the same.

The first post WW 2 semi auto that gained any acceptance was the Smith & Wesson model 39, which came out in the mid 1950’s. The first major US police agency to carry it was the Indiana State police which caused a number of other police department to take a look at it.

Once the model 39 came on the market, the race was on. It did take a while for semi auto pistols to gain acceptance, I suspect mostly because it is human nature to be conservative and stay with what is known. Don’t forget LAPD carried revolvers for many years after pistols were a proven item. It was not until after Chief Parker died that LAPD was able to go to short sleeve shirts in the summer and even then they still carried 158 gr round nose lead bullets in their .38 special revolvers.

While it is funny to think about it now, in the 1950/60’s if an LAPD officer got caught by his sergeant without his hat on in public, he was in real trouble.

So, to answer your question, tradition, availability of a proven option, human nature?

[fullrearview]

keep in mind that most decisions about spending money on issue equipment (guns in particular) are not made by the people with the most knowledge in the subject. They may listen to suggestions, and recommendations but the final decision is going to be based on cost.

This^^^

I know 1st hand as I was trying to get our department to allow personal carry. Our duty weapons were having major issues (Still do as most are still in service). Admin wanted to go with uniform carry and we picked the P226r. Don't get me wrong, I love the gun, but after buying these and new benelli M4's, we are looking at huge budget cuts and losing guys... We could have saved at least one deputy for the cost of the weapons...

[oddjob]

I started in the 70's and revolvers were issued. No one in my regional academy carried semi-autos. From what I remember the reason for revolvers were reliability (remember to compare revolvers to the semi-autos of the day), cost (weapon and ammo), training, simplicity, and safety. Smith and Wesson dominated the police market kinda like Glock does today.

I bring up safety because the training during that time is not what it is today. People could qualify, but were not trained as well. Training and qualification are different. My old agency used to allow semi-autos (personally bought) till someone launched a .38 Super round (Colt 1911) in the booking area gun lockers. Thats when the Chief said no more semi-autos.

Regarding tradition our Chief wouldn't allow stainless revolvers for years because they didn't "look" right. He finally gave up and allowed stainless revolvers.

[Notorious]

Tradition. Cost. Reliability. Proven Track Record. Lots of reasons why revolvers stuck around as long as it has with American police.

Revolvers came first. Revolvers are proven sidearms way before semi-auto pistols came on the scene, by a margin of at least 60+ years. That's more than 2-3 generations of people growing up when you think about it.


Cops carried what was cheap and plentiful and useful. Even when semi-auto shoulder weapons became more prevalent, a lot of cops still carried a revolver sidearm. You see quite a few cops with Tommy guns or even a BAR backed up by a revolver sidearm.

The cops trained with what they got. Nobody doubted the effectiveness of a well trained officer with his trusty revolver. Many criminals met their end that way.

It was what worked. It has worked for more than 100 years in American LE history. Then the push for the Wonder-9 came about in the late 80's for capacity.

But lots of cops still carry a J-frame for backup. When you need it to fire when you need it to be dependable under all conditions in a last ditch effort to save your life after your main gun has failed or was taken away, it's reassuring to know you have a pure mechanical device rotating a cylinder giving you a fresh round everytime you pull the trigger, instead of a device depending on recoil or gas to pull back a heavy spring to eject a round and put a new round up a ramp to give you a fresh round.

[Mike Dettorre]

I think you have to look at the time frames. The shift really started about 1985 and by 1992 most agencies were either issuing or allowing officers to carry autos.

Also it is not just the cost of the per unit for a new gun but...does the agency even need to spend the money at all.

IIRC, in the early 80s the economy was bad as well as the early 90s and when the Agency owns 500 perfectly functional S&W 66s, it has a difficult time justify $250,000 for new autos when it could replace 5-6 patrol cars for that amount and the patrol cars must be replaced.

[boltmopar]

I think you have to look at the time frames. The shift really started about 1985 and by 1992 most agencies were either issuing or allowing officers to carry autos.

Also it is not just the cost of the per unit for a new gun but...does the agency even need to spend the money at all.

IIRC, in the early 80s the economy was bad as well as the early 90s and when the Agency owns 500 perfectly functional S&W 66s, it has a difficult time justify $250,000 for new autos when it could replace 5-6 patrol cars for that amount and the patrol cars must be replaced.

That makes a lot of sense Mike. I am not LEO, but I always thought revolvers looked cool. Kind of like the 80s Dodge Diplomat. When ever I think of a police car, that one always comes to mind.