LEO's in traffic

[negolien]

sigh

Ya know what I' am tired of?? Wading thru posts in off topic where people are constantly crying about leo's...

[IrishJoe3]

ambulance (happened to a buddy 16 years ago before everybody had a cell phone).


My question has not been answered, no explanation as to why, when, where. Only a statement saying it is so. At this point I just do not see how it can be safer under any circumstances to be traveling at high speed in a Patrol car with out lights and/or siren on. Your example of some people over reacting does not excuse putting others in danger who do simply do not expect a car flying up behind them.

No, you’re so stuck on being the hall monitor you blew right past my explanation. I’ll break it down big-bird-barney style…

Situation One
1) Patrol car, legit call, responding high speeds on 5 lane freeway with light traffic with lights/siren on.

2) Moron bee-bopping to the stereo looks up sees patrol car in rear view, and does a panic –insert suicidal maneuver here—

3) Patrol car takes evasive action, while life flashes before eyes. Incredibly, patrol car avoids killing moron who lives to complain about cops.

That was me, many times. And the reaction for some drivers is totally unpredictable, and often incredibly stupid (ie like I said, changing lanes into my lane and stopping. WTF???)

Situation Two*

1) Patrol car, legit call, responding high speeds on 5 lane freeway with light traffic with no lights/siren.

2) Moron bee-bopping to the stereo sees patrol car pass to his right two lanes over and thinks “WTF??!?!? I am going to start a troll thread on cal-guns!”

3) Meanwhile, cop gets to the call alive, safely, and saves the day

4) Bee-Bopper starts thread and his hailed a hero among the tin-foil-hatters

*Situation Number two slightly embellished.

[IrishJoe3]

So, do you believe it would be safer to be going well over 100 on the freeway without the lights/siren on in some instances because it would prevent people from reacting suddenly and unpredictably?

Think? No, I KNOW it is, in some situations.

Well, your feeling is wrong.

Oh? Please, do share your training, your experience? How many code-3 calls have you responded to? How many hours a month do you drive a patrol car? How many millions of miles have you logged so far in your career? Tell about your on-going emergency operators courses you continue to take? How many hours do you have on a skid pan? High speed course? Vehicle placement course?

I don’t tell a logger the safest way to cut down a tree. I don’t tell a doctor the safest way to do a surgery. I don’t tell a utility line-man the safest way to climb a utility pole. I don’t tell an equipment operator the safest way to operate heavy equipment. Whats the deal with everyone knowing how to do a cops job better than the cop?

[RollingCode3]

You would give them a pass on it? What if they cause an accident that kills some one because they did not have the lights and siren on? Maybe one of your family members? Of course they should be held accountable, if they had lights/siren on it might have been avoided. At least they did try to let people know they were coming, still might not avoid the accident, but at least they did what they could.

[Comp^2]

The reason you don't tell a logger the safest way to cut down a tree, is because you haven't seen one doing it illegally. People know what the law is, and people tend to dislike when they see others breaking the law, especially when it immediately puts other people in danger.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the law does not grant LEO's any special driving privileges (speeding, tailgating, not signalling, etc.) when responding code 2. It is my understanding that normal traffic laws are still in effect, unless responding code 3. I don't care to debate whether or not it's best to respond code 2 or code 3, and under what circumstances - we can leave that for another conversation. As a matter of law, isn't the law pretty clear about the difference between code 2 and code 3? And please, let me know if I'm mistaken, incorrect, misunderstanding things, etc.

[Johnnykck]

Situation One
1) Patrol car, legit call, responding high speeds on 5 lane freeway with light traffic with lights/siren on.

2) Moron bee-bopping to the stereo looks up sees patrol car in rear view, and does a panic

3) Patrol car takes evasive action, while life flashes before eyes. Incredibly, patrol car avoids killing moron who lives to complain about cops.

That was me, many times. And the reaction for some drivers is totally unpredictable, and often incredibly stupid (ie like I said, changing lanes into my lane and stopping. WTF???)

Situation Two**Situation Number two slightly embellished.

Situation one,
1) good on LEO for knowing how to drive and being alert and able to a avoid moron making stupid move on freeway.

2)There will always be unpredictable reactions to Patrol car with light and or siren. Can't be changed. Thank god for LEO driver training and a alert LEO driving.

3)All other non morons on freeway make proper and safe driving decisions and let LEO pass with no harm done and LEO get's to call and save the day.

Situation two,
1)bee-bopping moron get's passed by LEO and thinks WTF, I am going to start a troll thread and bash some cops on line.

2)Meanwhile up ahead family van full of kids does not see or expect speeding LEO due to no lights/siren and changes lanes just as LEO is approaching. LEO crashes into family van, several severely injured including LEO (maybe even some dead).

3)Bee-bopping idiot, news stations and others really have something to write about. LEO does not get to call and save the day but ends up in wheel chair and has to live the rest of his life with the fact that the accident might have been avoided if lights/siren were used.

I see your scenario, but you can't tell me that my scenario is not just as possible. Both situations lights/siren on or off can create a really bad situation. Having lights/siren on could cause bee-bopping moron to do something stupid and cause accident with him because he is an idiot. Not having lights/siren on could cause an accident with some one who had absolutely no idea LEO was coming and to no fault of their own. I wonder how many people would support the idea that the LEO made a wise choice by not using lights/siren and would not blame LEO for accident. Which situation is worse?

[polo.45]

I see LEO here in San Jose drive like they are above the law all the time. No turn signals, running stop signs, cutting people off in traffic, tail gating, speeding. I have on occasion followed them just to see where they were going. Twice it was Starbucks, once it was the Pasta Market, once it was Panera. Recently I was tailgated by a LEO, he was so close to me that my wife was frightened, she told me to pull over. I had no reason to pull over. When he finally passed us he cut me off so bad I scared both of us. I called SJPD and complained and has the number of the parole car. About two hours later I get a call from SJPD, the person on the other end of the line asked if I had complained about a officer driving to close to me. I said I had and shortly described what had happened. I was interrupted and very rudely told "I decide how I drive, nobody tells me how to drive. If driving in traffic scares you then maybe you should stay home." Pretty much exactly the words he used. I can't believe that I actually got a call back from the officer himself. I'm sure not all LEO drive like this, but I do see this all the time. The excuse that they can't use lights or sirens is something I don't buy. If they are flying down the free way going over 80mph probably closer to 100mph, weaving in and out of traffic for several miles they could use their lights. Once they get of the freeway and get close to where they are needed they can the turn off their lights if they don't want anybody to know they are coming.

I work in Santa Rosa... I stop in Cloverdale Pick up my co-worker. we take the carpol line.. theres is this CHP again tail gatting us we move to the right . he keep going 10 minutes later we see him drive tru starbucks .. same guy same bike... same story 3-4 times a week

[Johnnykck]

Talk about quoting some thing completely out of context. I wrote:
"Well, your feeling is wrong. I would listen to your explanation and if it makes sense would accept it, no problem."
In response to:
"No I won't bother trying to explain to you because I have a feeling you won't hear it anyway."

Quoting out of context to make a point only makes it look like you have no other leg to stand. Misunderstanding what some one says is one thing, but quoting out of context is week.

[Rico911]

I do drive like I'm exempt when I'm behind the wheel of a patrol car. And not when I'm responding to an emergency. No excuse I only notice it when i'm in the passenger seat and I'll tell my partner to stop driving like a jerk, making ppl hate us. He responds by saying "you drive the same way and worse, all the while talking to your chicks on the phone, cuting ppl off because you can!"

I admit it, No excuse.

And to fellow LEO's, we should only drive to the limits of control only when responding to assistance requests. A co-worker almost t-boned me in my drivers door rolling code 3 to a 90 year old found not breathing. He didnt clear the intersection and did not understand why I was upset. He felt we should roll that hard to all code 3 calls.

CA vehicle law does not recognize code 2.

You wear your vest? Wear your seatbelt!

[Johnnykck]

Yeah, about the response I expected from some one who thinks that what he does is beyond reproach and that what he does can't possibly cause any harm because he is so in control of what he does. Everybody else is just to dumb to even understand what he does.

[chainsaw]

People pulling to the right when police or fire are rolling light and siren is the exception. Most people just stop in the middle of the road causing an obstacle course. But for texting-- no problem. To the right to the right.

I am not a LEO. But about 30 years ago, I was an ambulance driver, but I never worked with lights and sirens (I only did the para-transit service for the severely disabled, who have to be transported laying down in an ambulance with a medic in the back). So one day I'm going through a congested downtown area with narrow streets, and everyone around me was driving like a complete idiot. Stopping in the middle of the road, changing lanes for no sensible reason, speeding up madly. Weird. At some point, an Austin Mini Cooper (the old tiny one, not the modern one which is much larger) switched lanes in front of me, onto the sidewalk, and started driving down the sidewalk!

Anycase, as I look at this mess, I suddenly see a reflection of blue flashing lights in a store window. Drats, must be some police action nearby, I better pull to the side and let them pass. As I looked at the reflection, I saw that it was an ambulance, exactly like the one I was driving. And then it hit me: I HAD BEEN DRIVING WITH FLASHING BLUE LIGHTS ON FOR A WHILE NOW! Oh drats. If I had ever touched the horn (middle of the steering wheel), I would have noticed, since the siren would have come on.

Turns out the previous shift had carried a wheelchair on the passenger side of my vehicle, and that had smashed the siren / lights switch. It was stuck permanently on halfway (lights on, siren on standby), with the blue indicator light destroyed. Big oops. If the cops had caught me joyriding with the lights on, there would have to be some serious explaining to do (I didn't even have my EVOC yet). So I pulled over, killed the ignition, opened the hood, and started pulling fuses until the lights went off, limped home to the depot, and got myself another bus.

The moral of the story is: Usually, the average IQ of drivers is room temperature in Fahrenheit. If there are flashing lights or sirens nearby, it drops to room temperature in Celsius.

[IrishJoe3]

Talk about quoting some thing completely out of context. I wrote:
"Well, your feeling is wrong. I would listen to your explanation and if it makes sense would accept it, no problem."
In response to:
"No I won't bother trying to explain to you because I have a feeling you won't hear it anyway."

Quoting out of context to make a point only makes it look like you have no other leg to stand. Misunderstanding what some one says is one thing, but quoting out of context is week.

Oooohhhhhh, I get it. In that case, I apologize. I did indeed misread your post.

[Hydrogenmaker]

LEO are trained in the arts of Drive-Fu, they have to be, their office is a car. I'd wager that in the event of trying to catch/tail a potential dirtbag/drunk/speeder they don't want their presence known and thus don't want to be seen as they tail. Additionally, when threading the needle, they'd be telegraphing their moves, and the way I see people in Kalifornia drive these days, signalling is merely an invitation to other drivers to close the gap and prevent the lane change (of course only a moron would do that to a cop, and we all know there aren't any morons on the road???). So, I guess I'd just say, give 'em a wide berth and be glad it's not blue lights in your rear view mirrow rather than blinky red ones in front of you!

[cruising7388]

I don’t tell a logger the safest way to cut down a tree.

Considering the injury and mortality of loggers, perhaps you should reconsider!

You're right, of course, generally if you don't know the territory you're better off not offering unrequested advice. On the other hand, for those that are steeped in a particular profession, there is an inevitable and very human tendency to think within the box and also to develop the NIH (not invented here) syndrome. I know that I've had the disquieting experience of having someone that knew zip about the details of my work, nevertheless suggest a unique solution to a problem that never even occurred to me because their solution was so unconventional. So, maybe sometimes it's worth considering the value of a viewpoint independently of the presence or absence of credentials to support it.

Perhaps what you don't fully appreciate is the immediate reaction of a dumbass like me when you light me up. My immediate instinctive reaction is paralysis and that's not too terrific when barreling down the freeway. My next reaction is to incorrectly assume it's me you want to pull over which makes me slow down and start to pull over, threatening some other driver on my starboard side. It's hardly your fault, but getting lit up is traumatic and my instantaneous paralysis followed by panic plus confusion is hardly what you intended.

My uneducated suggestion is for law enforcement to implement a smarter light up format that distinguishes between "I gotta haul a**, keep clear" and "Hey, moron, we gotta talk, pull over". For "move over", your forward lights could be all yellow or all blue but for a specifically directed "pull over", you would turn on the whole rainbow. I think using a system like this could be of real help in better communicating to drivers what you want them to do. Obviously there is nothing you can do as an individual LEO to implement this, but perhaps you can comment on the feasibility (or the non-feasibility) of refining the system.

BTW, your posts are a blast. They're informative, straight from the shoulder, never patronizing, and fun to read. Thanks!

[Johnnykck]

Oooohhhhhh, I get it. In that case, I apologize. I did indeed misread your post.

Apology Accepted!! Happens to everybody.