LIDAR questions - HELP please

[Rivers]

I've heard conflicting answers about whether LIDAR units (as purchased by local PD's for traffic enforcement) require calibration. So ...

(Questions are specific to San Diego PD but some state law might come into play as well.)

1) Do the LIDAR manufacturers recommend that their LIDAR units be calibrated on any schedule or specific method? (Using a hi-tech service tool for calibration, or a quicker method that would be done on a daily or more frequent basis.) What are the recommended calibration methods and how often?

2) Do LEO's using LIDAR need to pass any specialized LIDAR training in order to be able to use LIDAR for traffic enforcement? If so, what certification? How to confirm which LEO has completed required certifications?

3) What make/model LIDAR is used by SDPD?

Before you ask, yes, I got popped on a LIDAR speeding ticket. I think the speed was wrong and some answers I got from the officer really got me wondering. They just sounded wrong, enough so to make me question LIDAR as used by this officer.

I just got a "no left turn" ticket a week earlier (no tickets in more than 15 years previous, then two in 10 days!) at a brand new sign-posting by a SDPD m/c officer who issued 135 tickets in 2.5 hours!!! I did a written declaration on that and they dropped the fine by half and offered traffic school, but I may still take that to trial. There are other issues about improperly placed signage, etc. on that. Anyway, I can only do traffic school once in 18 months and I don't want to have the point on my record. I'm not a whiner and will do school but I don't want to get screwed more than I deserve.

[BigDogatPlay]

All speed measuring devices such as radar and LIDAR have to be calibrated periodically. When I was first certified as a radar operator in the 1980's we had to have the devices serviced / calibrated annually. The operator should be testing the unit for accuracy daily.

When I certified in radar it was a sixteen hour course for a stationary radar. CHP's standard for their basic moving radar operator course now is 50 hours +, and the LIDAR operator course is another 8 hours. POST certifies both of those courses.

In most agencies you can't check out the gear if you aren't trained / certified. It would be pointless for you to have it if you can't write tickets on it. You are perfectly within your right to request proof of the officer's / gear's certification, but you'll have to go to trial for that.

I have no idea what make or model SDPD is using. CHP is using Kustom units, as I recall. A CHP guy will correct me if I am wrong.

The no left turn ticket.... how long was that sign posted before they started writing tickets on it? There was an instance here in Marin a couple years ago where a no U turn sign was posted by a local who was ticked off by freeway traffic jumping off and jumping on by making a U turn at the intersection. It turned into an instant cherry patch for CHP, they thought the sign was legit. At least two of my friends were cited. Each and every one of those cases were tossed.

http://www.marinwoodfire.org/content/Local%20News/100018

[IrishJoe3]

In short....Officers are reqired to test the device pre and post shift (to check that it is functioning properly), and the device is required to be calibrated every 36 months minumum. Yes to use LIDAR you have to complete a course.

In short, if you got popped with LIDAR, you're done. They are very acurate for distance and speed, and there is no arguing that we (officers) got the wrong car because we specifically target and individual vehicle.

[mej16489]

LIDAR existed but not in use when I was LEO

1/3) no idea

2) I think its RADAR training plus 4 hours LIDAR

I'm told that LIDAR is essentially unbeatable but I've seen it return unexplainable results with my own eyes. I got hit with LIDAR in early July by a Lancaster M/C out in the boonies; 2-lane undivided road = implied 55MPH. In his own words he estimated me at 60 but LIDAR said 67. We chewed the fat a bit while he wrote it up - nice guy. I know I was going 60 +/- a couple...

He suggested I go to court and tell my side - his notes of estimated 60 were right on the ticket. I probably could have gotten it reduced but I decided todo traffic school instead...

I look at it as karmic payback for all the times I really am doing 70-75 on those same roads out in the boonies. Now I roll the dice and hope I don't get stopped again before my 18 months are up...

[hitman13]

LIDAR self calibrates when you power it on.

AZ = have to go to a course to use it.

[Rivers]

Answering the left turn question, I don't think the signs were posted for more than a day or two before my ticket. Plus I have photo proof that, as I submitted in my written declaration, my view of the two signs that I would be most expected to see were actually blocked by a delivery van ahead of me that was turning right. Oncoming traffic blocked the sign posted PAST the intersection as well. In my photos, I actually had a car that provided a relative height, in this case a sedan could block the sign from my view. In reality, I followed a panel van, significantly bigger than a sedan. I told the officer that I never saw the signs and he noted that on the ticket. He also kindly explained that I could in the future just make a right turn, then an immediate u-turn so I could cross the intersection to go the way my left turn had originally taken me. I really feel I got the short end of the stick here and modifying the fine was simply not fair.

My LIDAR ticket was for 52 in a 35, late at night, no traffic, 100 yards after a 45 zone ended. I asked the officer when his RADAR was last calibrated. He replied that it was LIDAR and "since it was less than three years old, it didn't need calibrating." He showed me no documentation that the unit had ever been calibrated, much less a routine maintenance calibration. My understanding is that the LIDAR does need a simple calib check, like pointing it at a known distance (like 15') to verify that it returned 15' as the distance. But it is a manual calibration done at the beginning of the shift. I do have a witness who heard the officer's statements.

My goal is obviously to beat one of these so I can use traffic school to keep my record clean and insurance rates down. I know I'm no saint but I also know when I'm getting the shaft. Your help is greatly appreciated.

[LDSGJimbo]

Take a bunch of pictures of the sign. Traffic judges get irritated with people using the calibration defense.

Sent from my motorola with tapatalk.

[IrishJoe3]

My LIDAR ticket was for 52 in a 35, late at night, no traffic, 100 yards after a 45 zone ended. I asked the officer when his RADAR was last calibrated. He replied that it was LIDAR and "since it was less than three years old, it didn't need calibrating." He showed me no documentation that the unit had ever been calibrated, much less a routine maintenance calibration. My understanding is that the LIDAR does need a simple calib check, like pointing it at a known distance (like 15') to verify that it returned 15' as the distance. But it is a manual calibration done at the beginning of the shift. I do have a witness who heard the officer's statements.

My goal is obviously to beat one of these so I can use traffic school to keep my record clean and insurance rates down. I know I'm no saint but I also know when I'm getting the shaft. Your help is greatly appreciated.

And the officer is correct. Since it was less than three years old, (three years = 36 months, see my other post where I quoted 36 months). You have a witness to his statements? And....what exactly is that going to do for you?

Understand that the bolded above is not a calibration thats a check of the LIDAR device, and is done pre and post shift. Calibration is different. Also using terms incorrectly annoys the judge.

If you're looking for how to beat a ticket, you're not going to get that help here. My suggestion is that those black and white signs with numbers on them....pay attention to them and adjust your speed acordingly.

[Hunt]

go after the left turn ticket, the signs have to be well marked, I have beaten a ticket because my photography showed the signs / markings weren't visible and I was able to provide a previous case where a ticket was dismissed at the same location for this reason as well. I got lucky, I was out there taking pictures and some guy approached me and told me his story and gave me his case info. Not sure how you can find out if other tickets have been dismissed at that location.

[BigDogatPlay]

the device is required to be calibrated every 36 months minumum.

Thanks for the update.... it's been 20+ years since I last wrote radar tickets. I recalled that we had our units calibrated annually back then.

[retired]

To the OP, coming to this specialty forum to ask leos about your three questions is fine since they would have the knowledge about the device.

I recommend reviewing the rules for this specialty forum that are located in the sticky near the top of the forum. Asking a civil question as you did was ok. The answers you received concerning those questions obviously educated you on the LIDAR system. What you do with that info is your business, but going into the details of the ticket and stating you got the "shaft" is not anything the active or retired leos on this forum care to read about.

Posts from members offering advice on how to fight a ticket is also not permitted.

Since the info you requested has been provided, this thread has run its course.