Credit Card Fraud

[FrancisABoyd]

Target and the card issuers are the victims of the actual monetary theft, as noted.

FWIW Target's POS system is without doubt sophisticated enough to drill the transactions down to the specific register and associate log in along with the times of transaction. It should also be able to tell conclusively whether the transactions were done with a card swipe or by having the number keyed in. They should be able to verify pretty quickly, and perhaps have video, of whether or not they were hit by a card grifter or if one of their employees has an issue.

I've worked in retail and I can tell you all of these things are trackable and have been used to prosecute people.

[SparrowHanger]

Yeah, I know you don't need it yet, but just wait... it's around the corner. My buddy didn't even know he had his identity stolen until he received notice that he had a warrant for a DUI in Oxnard and that his "car" was still in impound waiting for him to pick it up.

Apparently, someone stole his mail, obtained his identity, bought a car with it, got busted for DUI, got the car impounded, never showed up to court, never got the car out of impound, and then disappeared. Leaving my buddy to clean up the mess. He had to drive up to Oxnard, and he never been there and had to ask me for directions to get up there, get fingerprinted to verify the guy they booked wasn't him, and then clear up the warrant.

I told him to at least get the car out of the impound since it was legally "his" car and under his name. He said forget it, he didn't want it. I would have taken the car and sold it for some money at least. It was like some Nissan 240SX or whatever, maybe some drifter wannabe would have bought it.

Gothcha and thanks. While the car was purchased by someone using his name and his name appeared on the title/registration, was it his?

[Notorious]

Gothcha and thanks. While the car was purchased by someone using his name and his name appeared on the title/registration, was it his?

Why wouldn't it be? If I paid for a car and put it under your name, for all legal purposes, it's your car as long as you are the registered owner. Even if I put a lien on it like a bank, it's your car and I only have an interest in it.

[SparrowHanger]

Why wouldn't it be? If I paid for a car and put it under your name, for all legal purposes, it's your car as long as you are the registered owner. Even if I put a lien on it like a bank, it's your car and I only have an interest in it.

Under these circumstances, the fact that the car was registered in your name does not suggest that its buyer had an intention of transferring ownership to your friend. I doubt if it would ever come up and the guy is long gone, probably having a lot more worrying him than a dui, but what you proposed sounds like grand theft.

[Notorious]

If the car is titled to you, it's your car. The criminal bought the car with my buddy's name, intending to use the car as if it was my friend's car. The intent to actually give the car to my friend? Probably not there, but if you put the title of a property in someone's name, legally, it is their property.

Figure it this way... if you paid for a pistol and it is registered under my name... whose pistol is it? Same as a house. If the title to the house is under my name while you paid for it, whose house is it?

Grand theft? You would have to have intent to deprive the owner permanently of that property. Who's the owner? I would guess it's the person named on the title. Can you deprive yourself of your property? Can you deprive the criminal of property that is titled to you?

Novel legal questions indeed.

[E Pluribus Unum]

Do you have a Playstation Network Account?

[SparrowHanger]

If the car is titled to you, it's your car. The criminal bought the car with my buddy's name, intending to use the car as if it was my friend's car. The intent to actually give the car to my friend? Probably not there, but if you put the title of a property in someone's name, legally, it is their property.

Figure it this way... if you paid for a pistol and it is registered under my name... whose pistol is it? Same as a house. If the title to the house is under my name while you paid for it, whose house is it?

Grand theft? You would have to have intent to deprive the owner permanently of that property. Who's the owner? I would guess it's the person named on the title. Can you deprive yourself of your property? Can you deprive the criminal of property that is titled to you?

Novel legal questions indeed.

The manner in which ownership is registered is evidence of of ownership but is not conclusive. The guy used your buddies name for convenience. He probably was a fugitive. Assume the county recorder mistakently records you as the owner of City Hall. Do you own it. If they guy that bought the car in your buddy's nake was delusional, would you argue that your buddy owns it. If it was a piece of land that requited $50,000,000 to clean up environmental contaminatioin, and the land was worth $500.000, would your buddy claim to own it because some crook bought it in his name?

Try this on for size. KrimKreep has a lovely wife and three young children, who are totally unaware of KrimKreep's criminal activities, which inlcude a bank robbery in which a teller was shot and killed by KrimKreep. Because of his concern that LE may have his true name, KrimKreep buys an car for cash under a name and adress selected by randpom chance from a telephone book; CitizenJohn. KrimKreep can't believe his luck, when upon being arrested on a DUI he is allowed to post bail since Oxnard PD was so backed up and short of manpower that it didn't bother to run his fingerprints over the weekend. KrimKreep could have gotten his car out of the impound but wasn't about to risk the PD might be run his prints between the time of release and getting the car out of impound.

Ther prints are never ran and even if they were KrimKreep doesn't know that he didn't leave any at the bank/murder scene. KrimKreep is himself killed in a barfight a couple of months later. Widow KrimKreep niot knowing about the game being played with the registration, but hearing from a friend of the late Kreep that he has a car in the impound, goes to claim it. It turns out after the mess is unraveled that UrBuddy, who's name was used, had came and claimed the car and sold it. Widow Kreep's brother vows to do everything he can to help out his sister.

He contacts UrBuddy to demand that he pays the proceeds of the cars sale to Widow Kreep. UrBuddy blows him off. Widow Kreep then commences a criminal action against UrBuddy for Grand Theft. Meanwhile the police seize the car from the guy to whom it was sold by UrBuddy, PoorSlob. PoorSlob files a complaint with the Polilce against UrBuddy for fraud.

[Notorious]

The manner in which ownership is registered is evidence of of ownership but is not conclusive. The guy used your buddies name for convenience. He probably was a fugitive. Assume the county recorder mistakently records you as the owner of City Hall. Do you own it. If they guy that bought the car in your buddy's nake was delusional, would you argue that your buddy owns it. If it was a piece of land that requited $50,000,000 to clean up environmental contaminatioin, and the land was worth $500.000, would your buddy claim to own it because some crook bought it in his name?

Try this on for size. KrimKreep has a lovely wife and three young children, who are totally unaware of KrimKreep's criminal activities, which inlcude a bank robbery in which a teller was shot and killed by KrimKreep. Because of his concern that LE may have his true name, KrimKreep buys an car for cash under a name and adress selected by randpom chance from a telephone book; CitizenJohn. KrimKreep can't believe his luck, when upon being arrested on a DUI he is allowed to post bail since Oxnard PD was so backed up and short of manpower that it didn't bother to run his fingerprints over the weekend. KrimKreep could have gotten his car out of the impound but wasn't about to risk the PD might be run his prints between the time of release and getting the car out of impound.

Ther prints are never ran and even if they were KrimKreep doesn't know that he didn't leave any at the bank/murder scene. KrimKreep is himself killed in a barfight a couple of months later. Widow KrimKreep niot knowing about the game being played with the registration, but hearing from a friend of the late Kreep that he has a car in the impound, goes to claim it. It turns out after the mess is unraveled that UrBuddy, who's name was used, had came and claimed the car and sold it. Widow Kreep's brother vows to do everything he can to help out his sister.

He contacts UrBuddy to demand that he pays the proceeds of the cars sale to Widow Kreep. UrBuddy blows him off. Widow Kreep then commences a criminal action against UrBuddy for Grand Theft. Meanwhile the police seize the car from the guy to whom it was sold by UrBuddy, PoorSlob. PoorSlob files a complaint with the Polilce against UrBuddy for fraud.

Ah, therein lies the crux of your argument. You said the County Recorder mistakenly registers city hall to me. Whereas in this case, the criminal intentionally registered and titled something to me.

Whether or not he knew me is immaterial. I can give something to someone I don't know. If he was totally bonkers as you stated in another instance, there may also be an argument as to mistake but as there is no contract or duty, what would be the recipient's responsibilty to straighten out someone else's actions?

[SparrowHanger]

Ah, therein lies the crux of your argument. You said the County Recorder mistakenly registers city hall to me. Whereas in this case, the criminal intentionally registered and titled something to me.

Whether or not he knew me is immaterial. I can give something to someone I don't know. If he was totally bonkers as you stated in another instance, there may also be an argument as to mistake but as there is no contract or duty, what would be the recipient's responsibilty to straighten out someone else's actions?

Again. the names recorded for a lien holder or owner are not conclusive. You must know some ADAs. Ask them what they think.

[Notorious]

Again. the names recorded for a lien holder or owner are not conclusive. You must know some ADAs. Ask them what they think.

So... The pink slip or title to my house in my name is not conclusive... Scary.