DA Shooting

[ap3572001]

I had to teach a class last week. We talked about Glocks and DA Pistols. ( USP,SIG etc)

Question came up ( AGAIN about the HEAVY DA first shot pull.

I think that when You draw and fire in reactive mode (You REACT to a threat to You or someone else) You are too close for it to make a difference.

When You are further away and/or are aware of a chance that You will use Your sidearm, You can cock the hammer and start single action.

Does this make sense????

[415dog!]

yes, our range instructor taught us that too. If i ever need to take a shot at 25 yds or more, i will need to have perfect sight alignment and trigger control. A light trigger press is much better then a heavy one in that case. heavy trigger press is better while searcing a house in case you trip and hit the trigger or something.

I use a Sig P226 stainless.

[Notorious]

Depends on the department's policy. LAPD used to "neuter" their officer's J-frame backup revolvers so it couldn't be cocked for single action firing.

For non-LEO CCW, you can do whatever you want within the law. Cocking your weapon to fire it in SA is just fine, but make sure you can defend your actions when you do that. What situations would require you to cock the gun and what distance/time factors figure into it?

You would be hard to justify that you need to shoot someone with your pistol at 25 yards if he had a stick, for example. Now, if he was beating his wife to death with the stick and you had to stop him at 25 yards, maybe. See what I am saying? There is no right answer on if you should do it, just because you can do it.

[9mmepiphany]

yes, our range instructor taught us that too.

Well, I'm going to have to generally disagree...but with an exception

If you had an instructor teach you that, they either:
1. Didn't know how to teach DA trigger management
2. Had given up on being able to teach it to a class of officers, because they didn't think the officers had the interest or the willingness to practice

I've carried a Sig (220/226/229) and a Beretta (92/96) as DA/SA duty weapons and have instructed other officers and well as non-LE folks in how to correctly manage the DA trigger. It isn't that hard, if you understand how it's done, and is just as accurate certainly to 25 yards and to 50 yards with a little practice...how do you think we use to do it with revolvers before adopting auto-loaders?.

The exception I spoke of earlier is when the distance gets out much beyond 50 yards...toward 100 yards. I have been known to cock the hammer to SA for that shot. But consider why you'd even need to make a shot that look...I'm thinking an innocent in immediate peril in close proximity to the bad guy.

A light trigger press is much better then a heavy one in that case

It actually isn't, unless you have a lot of trigger management practice, a light trigger press is more likely to result in a jerked shot...because you know it is going to be light

There is no difference between how a correct DA trigger press is accomplished and a SA one, other than the distance the trigger moves. It is just steady pressure straight back until the shot goes off

I shoot my S&W 642 (DAO) at 50 yards all the time for beer money

[ap3572001]

Well, I'm going to have to generally disagree...but with an exception

If you had an instructor teach you that, they either:
1. Didn't know how to teach DA trigger management
2. Had given up on being able to teach it to a class of officers, because they didn't think the officers had the interest or the willingness to practice

I've carried a Sig (220/226/229) and a Beretta (92/96) as DA/SA duty weapons and have instructed other officers and well as non-LE folks in how to correctly manage the DA trigger. It isn't that hard, if you understand how it's done, and is just as accurate certainly to 25 yards and to 50 yards with a little practice...how do you think we use to do it with revolvers before adopting auto-loaders?.

The exception I spoke of earlier is when the distance gets out much beyond 50 yards...toward 100 yards. I have been known to cock the hammer to SA for that shot. But consider why you'd even need to make a shot that look...I'm thinking an innocent in immediate peril in close proximity to the bad guy.


It actually isn't, unless you have a lot of trigger management practice, a light trigger press is more likely to result in a jerked shot...because you know it is going to be light

There is no difference between how a correct DA trigger press is accomplished and a SA one, other than the distance the trigger moves. It is just steady pressure straight back until the shot goes off

I shoot my S&W 642 (DAO) at 50 yards all the time for beer money

I agree with You 100% . I own , shoot and carry several Smith and Wesson revolvers.

I shot MANY PPC 600 and 1500 matches . All DA. Most of my revovlers I used in PPC were DA only.

You and I both know that a DA on HK USP for example is NOT the same DA as on a tunned Smith and Wesson 686.

I have been shooting DA since 1983. Teaching LE for several years .

And go to the range even now at LEAST twice a week, every week.

Still at a distance (15 yards or more) it is A LOT harder to shoot accurately AND FAST with a service auto in DA mode. ( A tunned Smith and Wesson is a WHOLE different story)


Many officers feel the same way.

So now, we teach to use DA first shot when You are close and reacting to a threat and cock the hammer when TIME PERMITS and You NEED a very accurate shot.

Makes sense?

[BigDogatPlay]

Well, I'm going to have to generally disagree...but with an exception

If you had an instructor teach you that, they either:
1. Didn't know how to teach DA trigger management
2. Had given up on being able to teach it to a class of officers, because they didn't think the officers had the interest or the willingness to practice

^^^This^^^

I carried Gen 1, 2 and 3 S&W semi autos for ~10 years before moving to Sig. Trigger management is the key and if it's not taught properly and practiced to some degree, the results are going to be less than positive. For those who are willing to put in just a bit of time the results can be very good.... recalling a case I read of a patrol sergeant several years back who dropped an armed bad guy lying in wait for other officers from what many of us would think of as carbine range (~50 yards) with a single DA round from a P220.

It's not hard, it takes a willing instructor and a bit of work. Training to two different standards (DA versus SA) depending on distance to target is, to me, not a sound principle. I get why, but if the target is so far away that cocking the handgun is mandated then it seems to me that the officer should have brought a carbine with him. FWIW, I was at the range last night and keeping everything within the 8 ring with double taps with both a stock S&W revolver and a P226 at 10 and fifteen yards.

My $0.02.....

[9mmepiphany]

...Still at a distance (15 yards or more) it is A LOT harder to shoot accurately AND FAST with a service auto in DA mode. ( A tunned Smith and Wesson is a WHOLE different story)


Many officers feel the same way.

So now, we teach to use DA first shot when You are close and reacting to a threat and cock the hammer when TIME PERMITS and You NEED a very accurate shot.

Makes sense?

Training to two different standards (DA versus SA) depending on distance to target is, to me, not a sound principle.

While I understand what you (ap3572001) are saying, I have to share BigDogatPlay's take on this...it isn't a sound principle.

What you are teaching is to lower the acceptable standard of proficiency with their weapon.

I'll wager that many officers who feel that way still jerk their SA trigger

You and I both know that a DA on HK USP for example is NOT the same DA as on a tunned Smith and Wesson 686...

While they are not the same feel, the techniques are the same...BTW a Sig DAK is very much like the trigger of a 686

When I started shooting PPC, I thought I could only shoot the 50 yard stage in SA. I took a while to understand that the consistent pull of a DA trigger is actually more conducive to accuracy at that distance

[1BIGREK]

There is definately valid points to both sides of this issue. I had been taught this years ago and again here at work the last few years. While yes you SHOULD be able to do it in DA as well as SA, there are those that can't and probably never will. There are those that could do it all day long. I was taught that it is a tool, take it or leave it, but mainly to be used in a longer shot with time to set it up. But then again, if there is a chance ahead of time, I take the patrol rifle with me. I think to be closed minded and say that it should not be a tool that is taught is a bad idea. You always have to teach for the lowest common denominator in the group, and in this case, that is one (or several :P) ones that are not the most adept at firearms. Give them a chance to be better and have higher odds on their side, but ride them on their basic control and form. I had a hard time at first, but with about 10 mins of 1 on 1 with the range master, he showed me some techniques, modified my malfuntions and gave me some drills to work with on my own. Now it is no problemo.

[tyrist]

Our policy was changed not too long ago that allows us to thumb cock the hammer for a precision shot (such as in a hostage situation). Other than that type of situation; if you are in a fight for your life I don't think DA/SA matters due to the stress. Your either going to do what you have been trained and practiced to do or not.

[deadcoyote]

Our department's 6906's had chopped hammer's so it wasn't an option. Now we have Glocks with the 9.5 pound connector so again not an issue. Honestly though, at first I was apprehensive of the 9.5 pound upgrade, but I really can't even notice a difference from the factory 5.5#.

[SVT-40]

In 1978 I was involved in a off duty shooting of a suspect who had a 8mm rifle in a city park. The encounter started at approx 50 feet when he aimed his rifle at me. My first three rounds which I fired at him were double action (they missed). As we were both moving and trying to gain advantage on each other the distance between us grew. My final two rounds were fired single action and were measured at 178 feet. My fifth and final round struck him on his left side as he was again aiming his rifle at me. It put him down and ended the fight. I was not struck by any rounds fired by the suspect.

I was carrying a S&W M37 2" .38 revolver. I had trained extensively with the revolver, firing both double and single action.

During the encounter I did not make any conscious decision regarding single or double action. It was all reaction. In fact I did not even remember making the final two shots single action until I was reviewing the shooting afterwords. I also did not consciously remember dumping my empty brass and reloading until afterwords. When the investigators asked me where I reloaded I kind of blinked and sheepishly replied "I don't know" We found the brass in the path I took to cover after my fifth shot.

So my advice train hard in both modes at different distances.

If needed your training will take over and your subconscious will make the best decision for you.