Search Question

[Steveo8]

I have a question to ask. This happened to my son and is not current so the laws may have changed since then. LEO working a 2 man detail (drug, gang, DUI) performs a minor CVC stop (expired tag, broken light) on a person of interest for something. LEO asks for permission to search the vehicle and is denied. LEO then asks to search the person and is again denied, LEO then performs an officer safety pat down even though there are 2 officers and 1 civilian. LEO finds something soft in the pocket that could not be construed as a weapon, removes the item and to turns out to be a controlled substance. Would this be considered a legitimate search and arrest?

[Ron-Solo]

If he can articulate based on his training and experience, coupled with the circumstances that the object he felt was a controlled substance, yes, the search would be upheld. I've done it hundreds of times and each time the search was upheld.

A pat down for officer safety reasons has nothing to do with 2 officers and 1 subject. It is based on many factors too.

This is a very basic explanation and description, but there are many factors that come into play.

[2patchHero]

Sounds fine to me.

[Steveo8]

I guess that my way of thinking from non-LEO view is that if the pat down is for officer safety then something that does not feel like a weapon would be out of the realm. For instance in doing a pat a cell phone or pager could feel like a weapon, where as a baggie of weed could feel like a wadded up handkerchief. So it would seem to me that it would fall outside of the scope of being taken for a weapon. By the way, just so that no one thinks I looking for any legal advice the incident occurred 7 yrs ago and has all ready been through the courts and the sentence completed.

[CaptMike]

as a LEO, I am always asked these types of questions. As Ron stated, from the basics of the situation, it sounds like a good search. To often people will argue that an officer can only go in your pocket if they feel a weapon. That is what they have seen on tv or they have been told this by some kid that took a beginning CJ or pre law class in college. In reality, based on our training, for example Drug Recognition Expert training, we are taught the symptoms and indicators of someone under the influence of a controlled substance. We are taught what the various drugs look like, smell like as well as what the effects are on the body(we are lectured, we don't try the stuff). Also, if that same officer after completng the trainiing class is then assigned to a narcotics unit where they get to handle lots of drugs, more experience is gained. Finally, you are detained for a traffic stop. The stop happened in a known drug area, a terry pat down is completed by this trained and experienced offcer and he feels a bag of what he believes is a controlled substance, he can legally go in to the pokets to withdraw the controlled substance.

there are alot of variables, as Ron stated, but an officer may have the legal authority to pull a controlled substance out of someones pocket. Moral of the story, don't carry illegal stuff.

[Jwood562]

Sounds like a good search to me. If I know it is dope then I will take it out based on my training and experience.

[Rhythm of Life]

Sounds like a good search to me. If I know it is dope then I will take it out based on my training and experience.

You can't possibly know its dope.

Thats like me saying guess whats in my front pocket and your first instinct is dope, you can't see it, smell it, only touch it through a layer of denim, but no your so highly trained that through multiple materials you can tell the chemical composition of an item....

[6172crew]

You can't possibly know its dope.

Thats like me saying guess whats in my front pocket and your first instinct is dope, you can't see it, smell it, only touch it through a layer of denim, but no your so highly trained that through multiple materials you can tell the chemical composition of an item....

What else could feel like a 1/8th of weed? I don't even smoke dope but even I could tell you what it would feel like in a front pocket.

For the user it doesn't stink but for me it smells like dirty feet.

I'm not sure how you can be so sure of yourself and doubt what these LE are saying they have done for many years.

[Rhythm of Life]

What else could feel like a 1/8th of weed? I don't even smoke dope but even I could tell you what it would feel like in a front pocket.

For the user it doesn't stink but for me it smells like dirty feet.

I'm not sure how you can be so sure of yourself and doubt what these LE are saying they have done for many years.

Because you can never know 100% without checking it out, thats how I'm so sure.

You can infer, assume, guess even, but you cannot know without actually seeing and testing it.

Would you know the thing that feels like a stick of gum in my pocket actually is that? Or is a strip of LSD? It might feel the same but you won't know til you check.

[Triad]

Consistent with what I have found with regards to narcotics, and paraphernalia, I know I could articulate what a methamphetamine pipe feels like, what a bindle of crystal methamphetamine feels like, what powdered methamphetamine feels like ect....just because of the amounts I have found over the years and the way its generally almost always packaged.

I am comfortable with these above, and have testified to exactly that. But your right, I would probably never be able to articulate what a tab of LSD feels like because I have never seen it, and I don't think I have ever arrested someone for possession of chewing gum yet. Marijuana and a balled up hankercheif (I think was the example used above) "feel" different.

Its just the way it is brother.

[Rhythm of Life]

Its just the way it is brother.

The fact is NO ONE but God Himself could know whats in that pocket without verification. We have 5 senses and to only use one to identify an object through different mediums of similar textures is just illogical.

[biochembruin]

If, during a pat-down search for weapons, an officer can "immediately recognize" an item to be narcotics, it can be seized without a warrant. This basically becomes a plain view seizure, which can be based on "view" using any of the five senses, including touch.

Rhythm Of Life, you many not agree with this, but it is based on years of case law. As far as recognizing an item to be narcotics, it is not difficult to do provided it is not inside a container. For example, a baggie of weed is easy to feel, but a pill bottle of weed would be thrown out in court if the officer says he immediately recognized the item to be narcotics. Think of it this way, if you yourself were conducting a pat down on an individual and feel a gun in the waist band, you would probably know what it is before you looked at it because likely you have handled your own guns before. The same goes for narcotics packaged in certain ways.

[Rhythm of Life]

If, during a pat-down search for weapons, an officer can "immediately recognize" an item to be narcotics, it can be seized without a warrant. This basically becomes a plain view seizure, which can be based on "view" using any of the five senses, including touch.

Rhythm Of Life, you many not agree with this, but it is based on years of case law. As far as recognizing an item to be narcotics, it is not difficult to do provided it is not inside a container. For example, a baggie of weed is easy to feel, but a pill bottle of weed would be thrown out in court if the officer says he immediately recognized the item to be narcotics. Think of it this way, if you yourself were conducting a pat down on an individual and feel a gun in the waist band, you would probably know what it is before you looked at it because likely you have handled your own guns before. The same goes for narcotics packaged in certain ways.

Thank you for proving my point in your own words.

You cannot be sure, you can assume, guess, infer etc but not know 100%.

[Triad]

It has nothing to do with ego...and I'm not going to engage in a pissing match with you.

It is what it is.

[biochembruin]

Thank you for proving my point in your own words.

You cannot be sure, you can assume, guess, infer etc but not know 100%.

I say probably because I don't know for sure that you even own a gun, so I don't know that you would recognize one. I also say you likely have handled guns, but again, I don't know for sure. I didn't really prove anything except explain how searches work. I don't know anything about your training, except your apparent lack of legal expertise.