Private Road question

[Hunt]

there is an area of the National Forest that I want to access but the only road into the area goes through an ungated area of private estates. There is sign along the road that says "private road residents only". There are no gates and this area and it is like a giant subdivision of ranchettes not like public access is physically blocked out. Can I be cited for driving through this area of estates on a so called private road to get to public lands?

[Ron-Solo]

Yes. You are trespassing on posted private property.

And in some areas of the Angeles National Forest those roads go thru highly restricted access areas where even the private property owners do not have unlimited access and can only make a certain number of trips per month. Such an area exists in the Sheep Mountain Wilderness Area of the ANF. The fines are also pretty steep.

[Stonewalker]

Yes. You are trespassing on posted private property.

And in some areas of the Angeles National Forest those roads go thru highly restricted access areas where even the private property owners do not have unlimited access and can only make a certain number of trips per month. Such an area exists in the Sheep Mountain Wilderness Area of the ANF. The fines are also pretty steep.

Why are those sites highly restricted? Just curious.

[mej16489]

Why are those sites highly restricted? Just curious.

Primarily things suchas designated Wilderness Areas.

[Hunt]

Yes. You are trespassing on posted private property.

And in some areas of the Angeles National Forest those roads go thru highly restricted access areas where even the private property owners do not have unlimited access and can only make a certain number of trips per month. Such an area exists in the Sheep Mountain Wilderness Area of the ANF. The fines are also pretty steep.

This is for a road to drive on not hunting lands.
The public land is not wilderness designated which excludes vehicles just normal National forest with a fireroad. This idea that enclaves of private owners can landlock public land and thereby making thousands of acres of public lands their own private backyard is not right. I thought one had to be asked then refuse to leave before being cited? A posted sign is good enough?

[TRICKSTER]

This is for a road to drive on not hunting lands.
The public land is not wilderness designated which excludes vehicles just normal National forest with a fireroad. This idea that enclaves of private owners can landlock public land and thereby making thousands of acres of public lands their own private backyard is not right. I thought one had to be asked then refuse to leave before being cited? A posted sign is good enough?

A posted sign is your notice. The sign is telling you that you do not have permission to enter. I would think that a sign stating "Private Road Residents Only" would be pretty clear in its meaning. Private roads are usually maintained by the property owners. If they didn't maintain it, it probably wouldn't exist.

[Ron-Solo]

I thought one had to be asked then refuse to leave before being cited? A posted sign is good enough?

Some are Federal things and a posted sign is good enough. And some are not just simple trespass issues. You are correct that most trespass sections require you to be asked to leave and refuse before being cited. There are some, such as trespassing in a reservoir or railroad right of way, that you can be cited upon entry. They can be confusing sometimes.

Why are those sites highly restricted? Just curious.

The one in the East Fork area of the ANF is due to it being designated as a lambing area for an endangered variety of Big Horn sheep. They have various reasons. The USFS also has an 'Experimental Forest" where they test different vegetation for re-forestation after fires.

If you can get permission from the land owners and USFS, you're good to go.

[mej16489]

This idea that enclaves of private owners can landlock public land and thereby making thousands of acres of public lands their own private backyard is not right.

Generally in cases like you describe above it takes someone willing to throw money at the 'problem' via a lawsuit. Usually what ends up happening is that a pre-existing public passage easement is proven to predate the parceling of land.

Think of is somewhat like a public sidewalk on private property.

[Hunt]

Generally in cases like you describe above it takes someone willing to throw money at the 'problem' via a lawsuit. Usually what ends up happening is that a pre-existing public passage easement is proven to predate the parceling of land.

Think of is somewhat like a public sidewalk on private property.

I am seriously considering finding a good opportunity to sue to open these landlocked areas. I wonder where I can find some case law on this issue.

[Hunt]

Generally in cases like you describe above it takes someone willing to throw money at the 'problem' via a lawsuit. Usually what ends up happening is that a pre-existing public passage easement is proven to predate the parceling of land.

Think of is somewhat like a public sidewalk on private property.

lightbulb going off in my head--- a visit to County cartogarphy should be interesting, I can pull all the survey records and if there is an easement and there should be, as there is a fireroad at end of so called private road ah ha.
If I can find some case law hmm getting interesting, this may be more fun than hunting LOL.

[SLYoteBoy]

Sounds like your beef is with the BLM , not with the property owners. Going to take some money to fight the state or maybe not (there pretty far in debt right now , so they might fold easy )

[Ron-Solo]

National Forest is not BLM, and neither is part of the State government. The Feds can print money all day long to fight you.

And asking for permission should be the first step before filing any type of lawsuit. Makes you look kind of silly when you file a suit and the other party says, OK, no one asked us before.

[Hunt]

Sounds like your beef is with the BLM , not with the property owners. Going to take some money to fight the state or maybe not (there pretty far in debt right now , so they might fold easy )

No this would be property owner(s) that are trying to keep public out of NF
I think if I dig up survey records and case law I should be OK if cited or challenged by property owner, there is an ungated forestry road at the end of the private road this road leads into the NF. I suspect that if the property owners had legal standing to keep the public out they would have locked gates. There are no locked gates.

[SLYoteBoy]

NF my bad.

And asking for permission should be the first step before filing any type of lawsuit. Makes you look kind of silly when you file a suit and the other party says, OK, no one asked us before.

Agreed

No this would be property owner(s) that are trying to keep public out of NF
I think if I dig up survey records and case law I should be OK if cited or challenged by property owner, there is an ungated forestry road at the end of the private road this road leads into the NF. I suspect that if the property owners had legal standing to keep the public out they would have locked gates. There are no locked gates.

If it is at the end of the private road I guess it would depend on how long its been private , and how often its been used by the public before it was deemed private.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_public_access_to_the_wilderness

Some info in there. Easement by prior use maybe , don't know if that is just private party stuff , or applies to government accesses.

[Hunt]

NF my bad.


Agreed



If it is at the end of the private road I guess it would depend on how long its been private , and how often its been used by the public before it was deemed private.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_public_access_to_the_wilderness

Some info in there. Easement by prior use maybe , don't know if that is just private party stuff , or applies to government accesses.

thanks slyyote- I agree about asking first