open carry

[rdubya]

Several years ago while eating lunch my partner was ordered to the floor by several uniformed officers. His shirt had ridden up and a customer saw the muzzle and called the locals and reported "man with a gun". Our badges were on a chain around our necks. Ever tried to show a badge when you are lying on it? It was a small town and all we did was what we were told. Kinda exciting now that I look back (not then though). You see a lot of plain clothes getting gas (jacket in the car) gun open, I don't think people get too excited any more. Sort of, if you do it it must be legal. But then if you are wearing leather and colors and riding a HD might be different (using an example not stereotyping, so pump the breaks people).
Be safe all.

[Jared1981]

Actually, you can do more than carry open. If you have a retired ID and carry is allowed or you have a retired federal LEO Carry license per PC 12027. You can carry ANY firearm openly or concealed as a matter of law. PC 12025 deals with CCW restrictions. PC 12031 deals with loaded carry (open and concealed) restrictions. You are exempt from both. It does not matter what a department says, it is legal and it is not grounds to revoke a retired LEO carry ID card or a retired Federal LEO Carry license per 12027.


Bottom line:

Now if you are carrying under LEOSA, you can only carry a pistol and it must be concealed.

If you are a retired CA LEO with the proper ID card or a retired Federal LEO under 12027, then you can carry any firearm whether concealed or not.

LEOSA carry authority can not be revoked unless you are prohibited by federal law from possessing a firearm.

CA retired LEO's and retired federal LEO's with the 5 year ID cards can only be revoked for cause, carrying under the letter of the law is not a valid reason to revoke. The PD that issued the card (or county sheriff for retired Federal LEO) may try to revoke it, but it would be very difficult to stand up in court since it is allowed under the letter of California Penal Code.

[winnre]

While off duty carrying concealed, has anyone ever had a LEO notice that you were carrying? Have you ever been detained and asked for ID.

If anyone notices, it is not concealed enough.

[retired]

Actually, you can do more than carry open. If you have a retired ID and carry is allowed or you have a retired federal LEO Carry license per PC 12027. You can carry ANY firearm openly or concealed as a matter of law. PC 12025 deals with CCW restrictions. PC 12031 deals with loaded carry (open and concealed) restrictions. You are exempt from both. It does not matter what a department says, it is legal and it is not grounds to revoke a retired LEO carry ID card or a retired Federal LEO Carry license per 12027.


Bottom line:

Now if you are carrying under LEOSA, you can only carry a pistol and it must be concealed.

If you are a retired CA LEO with the proper ID card or a retired Federal LEO under 12027, then you can carry any firearm whether concealed or not.

LEOSA carry authority can not be revoked unless you are prohibited by federal law from possessing a firearm.

CA retired LEO's and retired federal LEO's with the 5 year ID cards can only be revoked for cause, carrying under the letter of the law is not a valid reason to revoke. The PD that issued the card (or county sheriff for retired Federal LEO) may try to revoke it, but it would be very difficult to stand up in court since it is allowed under the letter of California Penal Code.

Are you referring to the dept. issued ccw ID card or the LEOSA one. I surmise you mean the former, since as far as I know, the LEOSA one is only valid for a year. It would be nice if it was 5yrs. like the dept. issued one since I keep on forgetting to renew it in a timely manner. The LEOSA one I have now expired about 5 months ago and I didn't realize it until a few weeks ago. Thankfully, I'm not going out of state anytime soon.

I need to make an appt. with my former dept. (lasd) to get it renewed. The drive to the BC range is about 65 miles from me.

[Jared1981]

Are you referring to the dept. issued ccw ID card or the LEOSA one. I surmise you mean the former, since as far as I know, the LEOSA one is only valid for a year. It would be nice if it was 5yrs. like the dept. issued one since I keep on forgetting to renew it in a timely manner. The LEOSA one I have now expired about 5 months ago and I didn't realize it until a few weeks ago. Thankfully, I'm not going out of state anytime soon.

I need to make an appt. with my former dept. (lasd) to get it renewed. The drive to the BC range is about 65 miles from me.

That is correct, the LEOSA cert is only good for one year. The instate one for California only under state law for retired Federal LEO's is a 5 year permit issued by a sheriff under PC 12027. I know if you retire from a state or local CA PD, the agency issues you a card, I don't know if they are valid for life anymore, I think you have to recertify every 5 years but I don't know for sure, I would have to recheck the law.

The CA ID card and retired federal LEO Sheriff cards are vastly superior to LEOSA; however, they only apply to California and perhaps states that recognize a CA license to carry.

If you want federal carry, every year you need to get recertified by the LASD to the department qualification standard; however, if the LEOSA improvement act passes then, any PD in California can certify you in the future for LEOSA carry whether it's Bishop PD or Mendocino SD.

[alex00]

Actually, you can do more than carry open. If you have a retired ID and carry is allowed or you have a retired federal LEO Carry license per PC 12027. You can carry ANY firearm openly or concealed as a matter of law. PC 12025 deals with CCW restrictions. PC 12031 deals with loaded carry (open and concealed) restrictions. You are exempt from both. It does not matter what a department says, it is legal and it is not grounds to revoke a retired LEO carry ID card or a retired Federal LEO Carry license per 12027.


Bottom line:

Now if you are carrying under LEOSA, you can only carry a pistol and it must be concealed.

If you are a retired CA LEO with the proper ID card or a retired Federal LEO under 12027, then you can carry any firearm whether concealed or not.

LEOSA carry authority can not be revoked unless you are prohibited by federal law from possessing a firearm.

CA retired LEO's and retired federal LEO's with the 5 year ID cards can only be revoked for cause, carrying under the letter of the law is not a valid reason to revoke. The PD that issued the card (or county sheriff for retired Federal LEO) may try to revoke it, but it would be very difficult to stand up in court since it is allowed under the letter of California Penal Code.

Jared- Not to split hairs, but where in the LEOSA does it say that you can only carry a pistol under the exemption? The way I read it, as long as the gun is not a machine gun, destructive device or silencer, it is legal for a qualified officer to carry it concealed. Theoretically, a qualified officer carrying a concealed AR15 in the trunk of their car would be exempt from CA laws. The gun is concealed and is not a machine gun or destructive device. Nowhere in the LEOSA, that I can find, does it restrict the items to handguns or firearms only capable of being concealed upon the person.

[Jared1981]

Jared- Not to split hairs, but where in the LEOSA does it say that you can only carry a pistol under the exemption? The way I read it, as long as the gun is not a machine gun, destructive device or silencer, it is legal for a qualified officer to carry it concealed. Theoretically, a qualified officer carrying a concealed AR15 in the trunk of their car would be exempt from CA laws. The gun is concealed and is not a machine gun or destructive device. Nowhere in the LEOSA, that I can find, does it restrict the items to handguns or firearms only capable of being concealed upon the person.

Excellent observation, I was not aware of that.

I wonder though, you have to qualify with the action type under LEOSA. So I wonder if you would have to qualify with a rifle to carry a concealed rifle (maybe under a shirt on the front seat of your car on a long road trip). Or maybe, qualifying with a semi auto pistol, would allow you to carry a semi auto longarm??? What are your thoughts???

[alex00]

Excellent observation, I was not aware of that.

I wonder though, you have to qualify with the action type under LEOSA. So I wonder if you would have to qualify with a rifle to carry a concealed rifle (maybe under a shirt on the front seat of your car on a long road trip). Or maybe, qualifying with a semi auto pistol, would allow you to carry a semi auto longarm??? What are your thoughts???

The way I read the LEOSA, is that one must qualify with the weapon type, not the specific weapon. If I qualify at work with my duty handgun, but carry a different personal handgun I am still covered by the LEOSA. The wording is broad enough, that I think that situation is covered. If I qualify with a rifle, I think it is perfectly fine under the LEOSA to carry any rifle concealed.

I'm certainly not volunteering to be a test case, but an out of state officer is permitted under LEOSA to carry anything in CA that is not a machine gun or destructive device. Lets say an officer from NV comes to CA with a threaded barrel on his pistol. That would be a violation of CA assault weapon laws, but he is exempt by LEOSA because it is not an MG or DD. If the pistol is exempt under LEOSA, why is a rifle not exempt if carried in the same manner? It is not an MG or DD. If a NV officer can come into CA with that weapon, why can't a CA officer leave the state, convert a weapon to an AW and return while enjoying the protection of LEOSA? In strictly reading the text of the LEOSA, I think that action would be covered. Again, not volunteering to be a test case, but proposing a thought experiment.

[Jared1981]

Alex,

I would agree, the problem is that most places that conduct LEOSA quals, they are only set up for pistols and revolvers, I don't see most places accomodating someone with a rifle and a shotgun. I think they should and it would be nice if they did.

LEOSA does in fact trump the AWB and even allows one to carry the Judge in CA since you carry under the federal definition of a non NFA firearm, not the convoluted CA definition.

[alex00]

Agreed on the qualification issue. It shouldn't be a problem for active officer to qual on all three, but retired officers will need to make friends with their local LE rangemaster.

I never thought about the Judge.

[Anchors]

Jared- Not to split hairs, but where in the LEOSA does it say that you can only carry a pistol under the exemption? The way I read it, as long as the gun is not a machine gun, destructive device or silencer, it is legal for a qualified officer to carry it concealed. Theoretically, a qualified officer carrying a concealed AR15 in the trunk of their car would be exempt from CA laws. The gun is concealed and is not a machine gun or destructive device. Nowhere in the LEOSA, that I can find, does it restrict the items to handguns or firearms only capable of being concealed upon the person.

Slightly off topic, but I would like to add (a little late) that long guns are not "concealed" as per CA law. As long as they are legal length long guns there is nothing illegal about concealing them, as they are "unconcealable".

Concealed weapon law only pertains to handguns or other weapons capable of being concealed on one's person, from which long guns are exempt.

Good luck trying to conceal a long gun though haha.

(P.S. I am not LEO. I was just browsing with the search function.)

[alex00]

Slightly off topic, but I would like to add (a little late) that long guns are not "concealed" as per CA law. As long as they are legal length long guns there is nothing illegal about concealing them, as they are "unconcealable".

Concealed weapon law only pertains to handguns or other weapons capable of being concealed on one's person, from which long guns are exempt.

Good luck trying to conceal a long gun though haha.

(P.S. I am not LEO. I was just browsing with the search function.)

Fully aware of long guns not being 'concealable' under 12025, but was pointing out that if a long gun was concealed it could possibly be exempt from CA AW laws under the LEOSA. LEOSA makes no distinction between concelealed on the person or in a vehicle.

[Anchors]

But AR15's locked in a trunk aren't concealed as per the law.
They are lawfully stored in a locked container (not that they need to be, except passing through GFSZ's.) Off list AR15's aren't even AWs (if properly configured.)

Or are you referring to registered "assault weapons". Like a named AR15 that was registered in 2000 with the DOJ and has different laws for transportation?
In which case, sorry I misunderstood.

[alex00]

But AR15's locked in a trunk aren't concealed as per the law.
They are lawfully stored in a locked container (not that they need to be, except passing through GFSZ's.) Off list AR15's aren't even AWs (if properly configured.)

Or are you referring to registered "assault weapons". Like a named AR15 that was registered in 2000 with the DOJ and has different laws for transportation?
In which case, sorry I misunderstood.

Yes, I'm not talking about concealed as it relates to CA law (PC 12025). I'm referring to concealed as it relates to the LEOSA (formerly HR 218). Basically LEOSA says an LEO can carry anything that isn't a machine gun, destructive device or silencer, as long as it is concealed. It's a federal law that trumps most state laws when it comes to possession and carry of firearms by LEOs.

My earlier contention is that it exempts LEOs from the AW laws if the firearm is concealed. If a Nevada, or any other state, LEO comes to CA with an AR15, they should be legal under LEOSA as long as the firearm is concealed.

This has nothing to do with a non-LEO's ability to transport or carry a long gun in accordance with California laws. You are very correct that long guns cannot be considered concealed for the purposes of charging a crime, but they can still be concealed.