Off duty carry...

[BC9696]

I can see the benefits of a red dot optic on your full size duty weapon however, for personal CCW protection off duty (like us civilians) an optic seems like overkill for me cuz the encounter is likely to be up close in personal with little to no warning. So let's say you are forced to draw & shoot under duress with accuracy and speed. Would a laser not be a better option if you had to shoot from the hip? Serious question...from someone who practices drawing and shooting (or dry firing at home) using a Kestrel shot timer. Thinking baby Glock application. All feedback appreciated.

[TrailerparkTrash]

I can see the benefits of a red dot optic on your full size duty weapon however, for personal CCW protection off duty (like us civilians) an optic seems like overkill for me cuz the encounter is likely to be up close in personal with little to no warning. So let's say you are forced to draw & shoot under duress with accuracy and speed. Would a laser not be a better option if you had to shoot from the hip? Serious question...from someone who practices drawing and shooting (or dry firing at home) using a Kestrel shot timer. Thinking baby Glock application. All feedback appreciated.

What a coincidence. I just posted a similar comment about the very same topic in the concealed carry forum I believe... Now I don?t remember which forum, as I?m too lazy to check and it was only about 20 minutes ago! Anyway, I had both designated on-duty and off-duty weapons in my 34 year LE career.

For on-duty, the Trijicon RMR is what i used toward the end and until retirement on a Gen 5 Glock 17. L@@King back, it was a waste of money for me personally. I did fine with iron night sights, probably because I?ve been into shooting and training so much for all those past decades. But on a duty holster Sam brown belt, I suppose it can serve a purpose, if not as a security blanket for some. For me I don?t know why I bought it, call it going with the fad, thinking it would make me a better shooter. Nobody admits when it doesn?t however, but that?s another story.

For off duty EDC, my added optics on my G19 gen5 and G43x were without a doubt, a waste of money on concealed daily carried guns. Again, this is my opinion and others would disagree with their own viable preferences.

For Off-duty or like “civilian ccw carry,” I figured that I’m not chasing bad guys, doing traffic stops, clearing buildings nor actively searching for and pursuing the “bad guys” like I did in uniform. So requiring an optic on a small concealable firearm for me just didn?t make sense anylonger. I hated the bulk associated with a concealable firearm when I was off-duty. There definitely was no need to carry a full sized pistol (Glock 17, 22 size) while off duty, especially with an added optic on top.

Switching to a smaller sized Glock (like the 26, 27, 19, 43x, 48) and I just layer felt that buying two RMR’s for them was a big waste of money. I thought back then that I would like them, but after carrying them both for over a year, I ended up removing them from two EDC’s. Again, YMMV.

Night sights (Trijicons, of course) and being good with them is what I strictly prefer for my compact EDC AIWB “get off me” guns these days. I carried professionally for 34 years and I know what I can and can?t do or what I?m willing to do these days with a defensive handgun and at this stage in my life.

For the last several years, I?ve preferred the “minimalist’s” approach with off-duty concealable firearms carried on my person. Just give me a spare mag or two …always.

Everyone?s MMV and to each his/her own.

[BC9696]

Thanks for that. I cannot see the need for an optic on my G23 & G27. I used to carry a small Ruger LCR with crimson trace which was perfect for hip shots in a SHTF situation but I cannot seem to located a laser that will do this with a Glock. I decided societal decay requires I carry more than 5 rounds now. As I age I am looking less & less formidable and have been viewed as prey by some. SD training for situational awareness has been key in avoiding confrontations however I still wanna be able to snap off a couple of rounds from the hip accurately with the baby Glock but don't see any tech that'll help with that so I guess it's gonna just become a practice-practice-practice thing.

Thank you for responding and for placing yourself between us and the arseholes, addicts & crazies. God bless.

[Manofmayhem]

Thanks for that. I cannot see the need for an optic on my G23 & G27. I used to carry a small Ruger LCR with crimson trace which was perfect for hip shots in a SHTF situation but I cannot seem to located a laser that will do this with a Glock. I decided societal decay requires I carry more than 5 rounds now. As I age I am looking less & less formidable and have been viewed as prey by some. SD training for situational awareness has been key in avoiding confrontations however I still wanna be able to snap off a couple of rounds from the hip accurately with the baby Glock but don't see any tech that'll help with that so I guess it's gonna just become a practice-practice-practice thing.

Thank you for responding and for placing yourself between us and the arseholes, addicts & crazies. God bless.

As you just posted, the key is practice. Nothing (no technology) will replace muscle memory when point shooting. Practice at 7 yards and closer.

[BC9696]

Almost bought the G-Sight ELMS dryfire laser system (https://www.amazon.com/G-Sight-Cartr.../dp/B09ML52HZ4) but after reading reviews, opted to wait. Is there a better system?

[Luis650ar15]

I would disagree with saying it's not necessary. I shoot nothing but red dots now and I have an incredibly difficult time shooting with irons now. Like everything, it takes time and practice.

Also, what some people don't know unless you have not taken a red dot course is that you can actually aim using the outer housing of the optic. This makes close encounters even easier to acquire an acceptable sight picture.

Personally, I would never go back to shooting irons. Optics keep me target focused and I'm able to transition from target to target much easier.

[TTT]

I would disagree with saying it's not necessary. I shoot nothing but red dots now and I have an incredibly difficult time shooting with irons now.

So you used to be proficient with iron sights, started using EO sights, and now you can't shoot with irons anymore?

[CSACANNONEER]

I would disagree with saying it's not necessary. I shoot nothing but red dots now and I have an incredibly difficult time shooting with irons now. Like everything, it takes time and practice.

Also, what some people don't know unless you have not taken a red dot course is that you can actually aim using the outer housing of the optic. This makes close encounters even easier to acquire an acceptable sight picture.

Personally, I would never go back to shooting irons. Optics keep me target focused and I'm able to transition from target to target much easier.

Until a battery fails at the most inappropriate time.

[LVcleef]

That's what back-up irons are for....nothing is for sure in life, that's why we train.

[TrailerparkTrash]

So you used to be proficient with iron sights, started using EO sights, and now you can't shoot with irons anymore?

[Luis650ar15]

So you used to be proficient with iron sights, started using EO sights, and now you can't shoot with irons anymore?

Not necessarily, my initial and brief exposure to firearms was with iron sights. I went through the academy with irons and was by no means "proficient.""

Shortly after, I started carrying a firearm with a red dot. I do not believe the argument can be made that irons are anywhere as accurate as a red dot. Once one becomes "proficient" with a good draw stroke,grip, and presentation, "finding" the dot becomes natural. All those things combined creates the bi product of speed.

I guess the fact that EVERY agency is transitioning to red dot is not strong enough evidence to convince you that a red dot on a self-defense pistol is necessary.

It's your pistol do as you wish. My statement was an opinion.

[Luis650ar15]

Until a battery fails at the most inappropriate time.

Has this happened?

Every single red dot, except the RMR gives you some sort of warning to alert you of a low battery. On average, most optics last over a year on one battery. Again with the exception of the RMR, the battery can be changed without removing the optic. You should be checking your gear before use EVERYDAY.

Like someone mentioned already, there are backup iron sights. There are also several other aiming techniques that can be applied if a red dot goes down. ( ghost imaging, guillotine, and landmarking). I'm NOT saying you haven't but, definitely worth taking a dedicated red dot pistol course because an optic going down is covered within the first hours of any course.

[Luis650ar15]

I highly recommend this read by sage dynamics. They get into the weeds behind the research and studies between optics vs irons. It's a bit long at 75 pages but it covers everything. Real facts and research behind what I'm saying, not just arguing a point because " it's always been done that way."

https://www.sagedynamics.org/

[esy]

Not necessarily, my initial and brief exposure to firearms was with iron sights. I went through the academy with irons and was by no means "proficient.""

Shortly after, I started carrying a firearm with a red dot. I do not believe the argument can be made that irons are anywhere as accurate as a red dot. Once one becomes "proficient" with a good draw stroke,grip, and presentation, "finding" the dot becomes natural. All those things combined creates the bi product of speed.

I guess the fact that EVERY agency is transitioning to red dot is not strong enough evidence to convince you that a red dot on a self-defense pistol is necessary.

It's your pistol do as you wish. My statement was an opinion.

How long have you been shooting?

You weren?t proficient with irons, but are now using a crutch to improve your shooting abilities. That?s not a good foundation to build on.

Something we teach in our firearms classes and academies especially while comparing rifle and pistol is someone who can run a rifle doesn?t necessarily equate to a good pistol shooter. A good pistol shooter will be a good rifle shooter.

Irons can be and will always be just as accurate, if not more, as a red dot. Your opinion may be that a red dot is more superior than irons, but that?s not a fact, unfortunately. If your dot goes down and you?re not proficient with irons, you?re screwed.

[TrailerparkTrash]

I guess the fact that EVERY agency is transitioning to red dot is not strong enough evidence to convince you that a red dot on a self-defense pistol is necessary.

That doesn?t mean anything. Overrated fads come and go.

-Remember when agencies transitioned from 9mm to the .40 S&W? Now they?re dumping .40 and returning back to the 9mm.

-Remember when agencies dumped the straight stick and transitioned to the PR-24? (No you don?t, because you weren?t born yet or were too young to know about that history). Now many agencies and officers are returning back to the more effective and better handling straight stick.

Sometimes, ?old school? is just better and was never ?broke?to begin with. It?s all about practice. When Jerry Miculek was in his prime, he could shoot a raw egg at 200 yards with a J-frame 2? .38spl and it?s ?piss poor? iron sights. He practiced with his weapons all the time, more than anyone else to get that good. Nobody is born that way.

Make yourself good with iron sights and you?ll hit your target. I still see people using optics on their $4,000 custom 2011?s (co worker of mine) and they still can?t hit siht. I liked bearing my buddy at the range with a stock Glock 17, with Trijicon night sights as the only imposter-part on my gun.