Proforce knowingly violate 18 USC 701

[neomentat]

Proforce now requires the photo copying of all 1811 Federal LEO's credentials as part of the DROS in criminal violation to 18 USC 701. Proforce no longer use the affidavit form for 1811s, any ATF SA here care to comment on this?

As the clerk and managers there put it, they've been photo copying all 1811 IDs, HSI, DEA etc... Why would they change from using the perfectly legal affidavit to this current illegal practice? Proforce is now officially worse than Turners on interpretation of the law and customer service with average wait time there going over 2 hours.

18 USC 701

Whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof, or any colorable imitation thereof, or photographs, prints, or in any other manner makes or executes any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any such badge, identification card, or other insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, except as authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

[Rogue187]

This is going to be interesting when an 1811 declines for them to copy the creds. Since it is a violation to copy federal credentials. It will be interesting when the AUSA files charges since this is a method to forge federal creds. ATF and all the other three letter agencies will be in on this.. If there is a increase in forged federal agency creds then Proforce will be the company blamed for providing the copies for the forgers..


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[neomentat]

Even on Cal DOJ's website it states the following:

4. It is illegal to photocopy federal credentials. How do I retain a copy of the proof of exemption documentation for individuals with federal credentials?
For individuals with federal credentials record the person's name, federal agency, and credential number rather than photocopying the credentials.

link:

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/fscfaqs#c4

[roostersgt]

Makes no sense to me why it;s a law. There are so many federal credentials already available online if someone wanted to copy them for some illegal purpose. They aint "special".

[neomentat]

Makes no sense to me why it;s a law. There are so many federal credentials already available online if someone wanted to copy them for some illegal purpose. They aint "special".

The law doesn't make sense and the creds are nothing special, but that's not the point. The point is it is federal law and Proforce is knowingly breaking it even though Cal DOJ express states not to copy federal creds while doing DROS on their web site.

[bluesmoke9]

Perhaps one of you Feds should call your favorite AUSA and see what they say? I suspect what'd they'd say would be that's not really the intent of the law and let it go. Or, you might want to call Calif DOJ-BOf and ask them to call Proforce and tell them to stop it. Says they can't on their own website. If they laugh it off, well, pony up some cash for the private attorney and look into a civil suit.

[michaelinfv]

Just buy a gun somewhere else if you can and it will cost you much more. I have never seen a gun store that won't make a copy of your creds especially for non roster guns. Its required by DOJ. I guarantee you that PROFORCE could care less there just doing there jobs. Hell I've even had airlines ask to copy my creds. Its not a big deal. Like someone said earlier the law was just written pootrly. I'm not bagging on you but why pick on proforce. All gun stores do it.

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[Rogue187]

Those are gun stores that do not know the laws.. Especially federal laws.. Why would an airline want a copy of your creds? If your traveling that is all they need is to view it..


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[ke6guj]

Just buy a gun somewhere else if you can and it will cost you much more. I have never seen a gun store that won't make a copy of your creds especially for non roster guns. Its required by DOJ. I guarantee you that PROFORCE could care less there just doing there jobs. Hell I've even had airlines ask to copy my creds. Its not a big deal. Like someone said earlier the law was just written pootrly. I'm not bagging on you but why pick on proforce. All gun stores do it.

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how can it be "required by DOJ" when they specifically state in the FAQ that it is illegal to copy those creds and to just note the details?

[SkyHawk]

Just buy a gun somewhere else if you can and it will cost you much more. I have never seen a gun store that won't make a copy of your creds especially for non roster guns. Its required by DOJ. I guarantee you that PROFORCE could care less there just doing there jobs. Hell I've even had airlines ask to copy my creds. Its not a big deal. Like someone said earlier the law was just written pootrly. I'm not bagging on you but why pick on proforce. All gun stores do it.

ahem....

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/fscfaqs#c4

It is illegal to photocopy federal credentials. How do I retain a copy of the proof of exemption documentation for individuals with federal credentials?
For individuals with federal credentials record the person's name, federal agency, and credential number rather than photocopying the credentials.

[michaelinfv]

Perhaps I'm wrong and you are right. But its kinda like when I was in the Army, There's a right way, a wrong way and the Army way. When your in the Army you do it their way.
I'm sorry you have a problem but if you feel so strongly about it maybe you should educate the management at the Arizona office. I have spoke to them and found them very nice and helpful..
I personally consider the totality of every circmstance. In this situation I think you are being exteme. Even if you are right. But every person has their own way. By the way, I'm just a customer like you. I find myself lucky to even get anything more than my issued weapons in this gun hating, and unbalanced state. And at better prices than a civy.
I hope you work out this issue. You can do nothing but help others if you succeed. Just don't win the fight and lose the war. ie....it becomes just another gun store.
Above all I pray that you remain safe during your time protecting our great nation..
Good luck , Mike


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[neomentat]

ummm I was actually denied service because of this after waiting for 2.5 hours. Do I seem unreasonable now?

And I've been going to Proforce for over 10 years, but this is completely new and uncalled for.

Perhaps I'm wrong and you are right. But its kinda like when I was in the Army, There's a right way, a wrong way and the Army way. When your in the Army you do it their way.
I'm sorry you have a problem but if you feel so strongly about it maybe you should educate the management at the Arizona office. I have spoke to them and found them very nice and helpful..
I personally consider the totality of every circmstance. In this situation I think you are being exteme. Even if you are right. But every person has their own way. By the way, I'm just a customer like you. I find myself lucky to even get anything more than my issued weapons in this gun hating, and unbalanced state. And at better prices than a civy.
I hope you work out this issue. You can do nothing but help others if you succeed. Just don't win the fight and lose the war. ie....it becomes just another gun store.
Above all I pray that you remain safe during your time protecting our great nation..
Good luck , Mike


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[michaelinfv]

I have no dog in this fight so follow on and good luck.

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[seal20]

I guess, waiting in line for nearly 3hrs is worth saving a hundred bucks? Instead you could walk in and out in under 30 minutes at any one of the other many FFLS who know the law and care about "civilians"

[bluesmoke9]

Those are gun stores that do not know the laws.. Especially federal laws.. Why would an airline want a copy of your creds? If your traveling that is all they need is to view it..


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Well, I guess when the airlines start selling guns you're good to go!