Reserves--"Can we talk"?

[LtJim]

"Reserve" "Auxiliary" Law Enforcement Officers are in the news right now.

I remember when they came in and the various opinions that were expressed by "Full-Time" LEO's and by others who wanted to belong to that program.

There were heated discussions on both sides that advocated their positions.

Let's see where your opinions are today. Are you a Retired LEO, Current LEO, A Reserve, A potential Reserve?

"WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS PROGRAM"?

Don't hold back! Are you "Old School" or are you from "Everybody's a Winner"?

[code_blue]

Potential RO, but 7 year civilian in LE. Mod II certified. It is difficult to schedule a Mod I at the moment because bills and food on the table take priority.

It's important to note that current CA ROs go through or have gone through the same training standards set by POST and are assigned duties specific to their level of training as defined by POST and their respective agencies. I cannot speak for other state's ROs.

In previous times, ROs were under minimal training or different standards than FT LEOs. I think it was A, B, and C levels, was it? As a result, I can see where the disapproval of ROs came from.

FT LEO positions are highly competitive and there are a good number of ROs that enter with the intent to go FT. These individuals want to be as competitive as possible when they apply for agencies. My goal is to eventually go full time as well, but I'd like to finish a few other goals first. Additionally, I need to obtain an RO position before my POST expires during my path to complete my other goals.

One item in my strategic plan... I am aware that LE overall is behind on fighting electronic crimes. I went back to school to earn a degree in computer forensics to help combat them. This is one of the steps that not only will help me to be more competitive, but will also help my agency and LE overall.

Being an RO is a great opportunity to learn and gain experience under the guidance of other officers. Yea, ROs usually don't get paid, but that's not the point. My plan is to be as prepared as possible for the field when I enter it and being an RO is the most efficient way to do so.

If it doesn't work out, I will still have additional training and experience to continue to be an excellent civilian employee for my current agency. For me, it's a great system and opportunity. It gives people like me, who've decided later on in life, an alternative route to put on the blue.

On the other side, being an RO is also for those who initially wish to join the field, but decide later on that they no longer want to be in the field. It can be seen as a "test drive" for these people. I know of a few people that were at the top of their game and made it all the way through. Once they realized the reality and risks of police work, they resigned and moved on.

Stay safe, everyone.

[gorn5150]

I am retired now but when I was working one of my assignments was as assistant volunteer services coordinator for my department. We had about 150 sworn level 1 and 2 reserves. The reserve program is great. It added manpower that our agency wouldn't have had otherwise.

The main problem I saw is the same one the Sheriff is having in the recent shooting, cronyism. Like that Sheriff it is not uncommon for buddies of the Sheriff get in because the Sheriff likes to throw them a bone. Those type of guys are members of the Sheriff's political posse and or donate generously to the campaign.

I had several problems with those type of reserves causing trouble by whining to the Sheriff. The Sheriff generally would intervene and force us to comply go along with the reserve.

I found there are several reasons people wanted to be reserves. The first were people who wanted experience while trying to get hired. The second were people that would have loved to be full time LEO but made so much money at their real life it would have been a big step down. And then the power trippers which are generally the Sheriffs buddies. I'm not saying all the Sheriff's buddies were that way but many were.

[roostersgt]

I'm a retired sheriff's sergeant and an active level one reserve in Cali. I was also my department's volunteer services coordinator and oversaw and ran our sheriff's citizens academy, which provided training and certification for less than level one reserve officers (approx 1200+). Without knowing all of the facts involved in the Tulsa incident, it's hard to have an opinion. If one believes what was reported, then there is certainly a huge problem there with credential peddling, kind of like what some boobs have suggested here, on another thread where they're trying to garner interest in "buying" some type of LEO credentials to thwart CCW law and gain LEOSA status, or some other nonsense.

[code_blue]

It is also important to note, for educational purposes and for those who only want to become ROs for the benefits, that your agency may not allow you to carry off-duty without a CCW i.e. you are a civilian off-duty to the agency.

Several agencies, if not all, in my county and neighboring counties do this for their sworn employees that are not classified as FT LEOs such as ROs, On-Calls, etc... LEOSA may allow you to, but your agency may not.

[roostersgt]

Level one has full time powers. No CCW needed. Exempt from roster and mag restrictions also. Not aware of any reserve positions that come with any type of benefit.

[code_blue]

"Benefits" such as being able to purchase off-roster and standard capacity magazines as you've mentioned. People trying to go in just for peace officer exemptions are trying to be in the wrong field.

Level 1 reserves, from my research of surrounding agencies, are only given full time powers after completing the field training program or meet the exemption defined by POST. Otherwise, they are ROs with additional functions over Level 2 and cannot patrol alone or supervise Level 2 and 3 ROs.

Until then, the agency could require a CCW as I cannot locate anything stating that the agency cannot restrict by policy.

[Dr.Lou]

Level one has full time powers. No CCW needed. Exempt from roster and mag restrictions also. Not aware of any reserve positions that come with any type of benefit.

Not necessarily. There are two types of level 1 reserves in CA, designated and non-designated. Designated level 1s have full powers, non-designated level 1s do not; they can work unsupervised like a full-time officer, but lose their juice when off duty. Only the chief or sheriff can designate.

[roostersgt]

"Designated" level one is over regular level one and has 830.1 pc powers and authorities, same as every other police officer, or deputy. the "designated" identifier is the key. Our DOJ only recognizes regular full time and designated level one officers as being exempt from the roster and magazine restriction. No other level of reserve is afforded those "benefits".

To be eligible for "designated" status, one has to have been through a full academy, hired by an agency and minimally completed their one year basic POST certificate, along with a full patrol training program, as prescribed by POS, then blessed with such a status by their departments head, pursuant to a city or county ordinance. That's why most designated level one reserves are retired leo. Are any of you responding to this thread actually cops, or are you just here to engage in discourse?

[code33]

Our DOJ only recognizes regular full time and designated level one officers as being exempt from the roster and magazine restriction. No other level of reserve is afforded those "benefits".

This is incorrect. The penal code exemption sections do not distinguish between full-time or reserve.

The California Reserve Peace Officers Association helped clear up the large cap magazine issue years ago resulting in a 2009 DOJ memo released to All CA FFL's. A copy of the memo was published in the CRPOA newsletter. Starts on page 7.

http://tinyurl.com/CRPOA-Spring2010-Magazine

Magazines and off-roster handguns further discussed by CRPOA counsel in April 2013:
Page 7-8, Section 4.

http://tinyurl.com/CRPOA-LEOSA-LegalStatus

[roostersgt]

This is incorrect. The penal code exemption sections do not distinguish between full-time or reserve.

The California Reserve Peace Officers Association helped clear up the large cap magazine issue years ago resulting in a 2009 DOJ memo released to All CA FFL's. A copy of the memo was published in the CRPOA newsletter. Starts on page 7.

http://tinyurl.com/CRPOA-Spring2010-Magazine

Magazines and off-roster handguns further discussed by CRPOA counsel in April 2013:
Page 7-8, Section 4.
http://tinyurl.com/CRPOA-LEOSA-LegalStatus

Yes, I read that on their website and I know what the PC states, but you just try to buy an off-roster in 2015 at your LGS without having "designated level one" on your ID. It won't happen at any of the gun shops in my area. It won't happen at Armory Outpost (they contacted DOJ and were told exactly what I'm telling you just 2 months ago) or Sac Black Rifle (where they questioned me about my level and looked over my ID with great scrutiny last Dec). They for sure and they know what they are doing. The DOJ has advised them only "designated "full time powers" reserves can buy off- roster and hi cap mags. Same goes with ordering an off-roster from PSA. Been there, done that. This states attorney general's opinion, used by our DOJ, is the reality we must presently live with and appears to trumps the PC. Have you had any different experiences? I've bought three off-roster handguns in the past 5 months and that's been my experience at all three shops.

[code_blue]

Are you referring to this?

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/exemptpo

Effective immediately, peace officers who have legislative authority to carry and use firearms may, without a letter signed by the head of their agency or the agency head's designee, purchase non-rostered handguns and/or large capacity magazines. The peace officer must present a valid peace officer identification card and the dealer must retain a copy of the identification card on file. (PC 12132 & 12133). A letter is still required from the head of the agency to exempt the peace officer from the ten day waiting period. (PC 12078).

It does not designate the differences in RO levels; only peace officers that legally carry and use firearms, which appears to be up to the agency as defined in the PC. CA DOJ's DROS/DES and the PC does not differentiate RO levels either. I interpret this as, if the agency allows you to carry a firearm for duty, you may purchase off-roster pistols and standard capacity magazines.

I also work at a local FFL and do not recall ever turning away ROs from off-roster pistols or standard capacity magazines. I'll ask our DOJ cert instructors to see if they've heard otherwise.

Rooster, could you link me to the AG opinion so I can research further? I've searched the index by year and cannot locate one:

https://oag.ca.gov/opinions/yearly-index?conclusion-year%5Bvalue%5D%5Byear%5D=2015&=Apply&=Apply

Thanks. Stay safe.

[roostersgt]

Are you referring to this?

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/exemptpo

Effective immediately, peace officers who have legislative authority to carry and use firearms may, without a letter signed by the head of their agency or the agency head's designee, purchase non-rostered handguns and/or large capacity magazines. The peace officer must present a valid peace officer identification card and the dealer must retain a copy of the identification card on file. (PC 12132 & 12133). A letter is still required from the head of the agency to exempt the peace officer from the ten day waiting period. (PC 12078).

It does not designate the differences in RO levels; only peace officers that legally carry and use firearms, which appears to be up to the agency as defined in the PC. CA DOJ's DROS/DES and the PC does not differentiate RO levels either.

I also work at a local FFL and do not recall ever turning away ROs from off-roster pistols or standard capacity magazines. I'll ask our DOJ cert instructors to see if they've heard otherwise.

Rooster, could you link me to the AG opinion so I can research further? Thanks. Stay safe.

I didn't see a different AG opinion than the one you referenced and it is on the DOJ website. Nobody here seems to accept that and is obviously relying on some guidelines they have been given that is stricter than what is written. Attorney Generals at both the state and federal level seem to do whatever they want, regardless of what is written, so does the Sec of State, President, VP, IRS, ATF, Border Patrol etc.... Hate it, but it is what it is. PSA further required a letter from my sheriff stating the LCP would be used / authorized for on-duty use. They wouldn't sell it to me with just the opinion you sited, which I included along with a copy of my credentials. They also only recognize city police, county deputies and state troopers from California as those they will sell Ca off-roster hand guns to, no other peace officers. It's right there on their website. When i asked them about it they said it's "store policy", not any law.

My point is that in my experience, at the shops I mentioned by name, they only sell to designated level ones. Call them, call the DOJ and ask them. Ron at Armory outpost made several calls, at my request, to their agent in charge before he could get a straight answer on whether or not he could conduct my recent transfer of a LCP. Designated Level One is the only reason he was able to complete my transfer. Ron (Armory Outpost) told me the first couple of calls to the agent who answered the telephone were that I could not, as a reserve, receive an LCP. I persisted and he was able to confirm through their supervising agent, that designated level ones could. Sac Black Rifle specifically asked if I was a "Designated Level One" and if I had ID supporting my claim.

Now I'm not a FFL, nor have I much experience in buying firearms, but they were pretty damn clear of who was able to receive off roster stuff. I didn't buy any standard mags from those dealers and simply presented my ID for photocopying at another place for mags. No real scrutiny or conversation at that place, unlike where I transferred / purchased hand guns.

It looks like new information is being put out in that old reserve shooting in N.C. I appears he does have 64 pages of training records, including firearms quals etc... The reports indicated that while he "passed" the courses and training requirements, it was documented many times that he did not perform well under stress. I'd say the mechanical portions of his training was "okay", as he hit what he was aiming at. It was his use of force and weapons selection under stress that malfunctioned and was defunct. His training records are not going to help him, the sheriff, or the county in his upcoming court cases.

[Tallship]

Rooster, you need to go to a different gun shop. As a reserve AND an FFL I can tell you that you are legally able to buy any handgun you want (except for something like the Judge).

[Sacmedic]

I agree Tallship. I've bought off roster guns from a Sacramento FFL (Just Guns) and am not city PD, deputy sheriff or highway patrol. Any shop like SBR making up "store policy" like they did for Rooster wouldn't get anymore of my business.