Exposure to Shock during Training

[penguinofsleep]

I know I will definitely be the odd one out for asking this, but after watching the unsafe shooting videos in the training forum, I was wondering about the following.

Also I am not trying to and hope I don't sound disrespectful to those who have passed serving or sound like I'm discounting their lives/tragedy. I'm very (quietly) thankful to those who have risked their own lives to serve and protect not only the people of their country, but the ideals the country represents as well. I also haven't been mil so I understand that maybe I just don't get it. I apologize if I offend anyone with my question.

With that being said:
Is total 100% safety during training and practice we very understandably strive for inadvertently and potentially harmful in the long run? Would previous exposure to the shock/trauma/stress of a fellow soldier or maybe even a friend getting injured or killed in training better prepare our troops for the harsh realities of war at all (edit: or maybe even just muzzle swept a few times, etc.)? Not just during wartime, but maybe say some of the very understandable PTSD or other mental stress that will be endured afterwards? In short, a single tragedy that could maybe down the road prevent dozens more?
And no, I'm not advocating that we start injuring or killing people for the sake of psychological prep or anything. Or that we start being negligent/sloppy, that life is cheap, or w/e else. But as Sun Tzu said: "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles." I imagine exposure to stuff like this would be the biggest part of knowing yourself.

i.e. I believe Spetsnaz and many other forces around the world (not all of which are legitimate per se) have a few of their own people die in training to break their guys in to the inevitable realities of their occupation? Most ancient cultures and militaries were exposed to this too. That and if I were say in infantry that was already extremely stressful and dangerous, as bad as this will sound given it's very high price, I wouldn't want to be under a fresh/green officer who has never experienced deaths, shock, or trauma before, especially say death of a buddy, who then breaks down or starts making dumb choices and gets us all killed in the course of it.

[OIF_VET]

In the 82nd Airborn Division we killed people in training all the time. Although not on purpose. Soldiers got killed during live fire training, parachutes didn't open on jumps, helicopters crashed, you name it. I'll say this, we had a big billboard by the Division HQ that alway said the number of days since the last division accident fatality. If that number reached 82 days, we got a day off work. In the 6 years I was there, I saw it maybe 3-4 times. So troopers were exposed to stress and death pretty regularly.

Also, they were quick to get you back into the mix once a fatality did happen. If someone in your unit was killed on a jump, you better bet you would back on another jump within hours.
I think all of It really helped when we were down range. However, it's the military and people die. Cherry officers have been getting soldiers killed since the beginning of warfare. That's why god invented Platoon Sargents. It's his job to train that cherry LT. Everyone else just controls their little piece of the pie. But the best part...In a years time, when that LT is all trained up and good-to-go....he promotes. And you start all over with another fresh out of college LT.


Just my experiance.

[penguinofsleep]

thanks for the feedback. any idea if other bases/training programs are similar to this as well? again, not advocating that people get harmed or killed in training, but just wondering.

[OIF_VET]

All military posts across all services are like this to some extent. Go ask a Navy guy working on an aircraft carrier how many people get killed on normal day to day operations. He'll tell ya. A Marine will tell you how many Marines they lost on helos going down in training. I've been a few old Ch-46's that I couldn't believe were still flying.

Think of it like this...You give a 17-19 year old a tremendous amount responsibility right out of the gate just for putting his name on a contract. Give him a little more training and he's now carrying the machine gun or driving a tank. Give him a little more and now he's talking to talking to attack helicopters or adjusting artillery fire. Just a bit more and now he is supervising others to conduct these type of operations. These 18 year olds are carrying out/affecting foreign policy all by their lonesome. I know 18 year olds that can't even get a fast food order right.

Things go wrong. People lose their lives. But that's the nature of the war fighting business. To kill our own troops to put "stress" on them is stupid. Would you join that military?

[Manolito]

I went through some training that was dangerous to say the least. In my opinion nothing prepares you for war. There is a lot of difference between a training accident and a fire fight. Also in training Doc is right there and you move on to other things while the medics clean up the mess. In war it is often you that deals with the ugly side of war.

I am sure I misunderstood your question you weren't asking if we should intentionally hurt people to get everybody ready for combat were you?

[SkyStorm82]

In the 82nd Airborn Division we killed people in training all the time. Although not on purpose. Soldiers got killed during live fire training, parachutes didn't open on jumps, helicopters crashed, you name it. I'll say this, we had a big billboard by the Division HQ that alway said the number of days since the last division accident fatality. If that number reached 82 days, we got a day off work. In the 6 years I was there, I saw it maybe 3-4 times.

Ahhhh. The death board.

[OIF_VET]

Lol. It was the best when it would get to 79 or 80 days...then would would come to work and see it at zero. Ahhh WTF!?

[OIF_VET]

....but of course nothing prepares you for combat except combat.

[SkyStorm82]

Lol. It was the best when it would get to 79 or 80 days...then would would come to work and see it at zero. Ahhh WTF!?

Yeah. Those 3 day weekends were rare.

[Mr.Caketown]

Ahhhh. The death board.

yup... on Gruber Rd .

Seen a safety once in my 2 years on Bragg and it was because everyone was still re deploying

[Scuba Steve33]

We had battalion boards for days since last alcohol incident. If we went ten days (10th Mountain) without one, the battalion would get a three day weekend at the end of the month. Only saw non-infantry batts getting those three days lol.

OP, I think your point is unintended exposure to these types of things may help, correct? No, it won't and there is no way to let these things happen. We do everything we can to prevent them and while **** still happens, it doesn't help prepare you for war because in the end there is still one major difference and that is over there you have many people specifically trying to kill you. You cannot duplicate that, even in some rare incidents of on base shootings. It's just not the same.

There's only so much training you can go through. When the time comes you either react like you should or you freeze up and you literally have no control over it, it's just the type of person you are and nothing can perpare you for that.

[ldsnet]

Oh believe me the battle conditions the Army comes up with for training is Amazing.

They have actually hired combat vet amputees to play characters in the battles so soldiers can get first hand experience of dealing with a bloody screaming body that is missing limbs. Pretty darn traumatic to see.

[SkyStorm82]

We had battalion boards for days since last alcohol incident. If we went ten days (10th Mountain) without one, the battalion would get a three day weekend at the end of the month. Only saw non-infantry batts getting those three days lol.

OP, I think your point is unintended exposure to these types of things may help, correct? No, it won't and there is no way to let these things happen. We do everything we can to prevent them and while **** still happens, it doesn't help prepare you for war because in the end there is still one major difference and that is over there you have many people specifically trying to kill you. You cannot duplicate that, even in some rare incidents of on base shootings. It's just not the same.

There's only so much training you can go through. When the time comes you either react like you should or you freeze up and you literally have no control over it, it's just the type of person you are and nothing can perpare you for that.

Bro, do you even jump?

[penguinofsleep]

thanks for all the answers.

again, no im not asking or suggesting that we intentionally induce trauma or harm for the sake of training. more of a curiosity thing where i wonder if perhaps aiming for 100% safety (a good thing) has it's trade offs in the form of people being unprepared for more difficult things, which in a bad situation, may result in more unnecessary death/s. if people said no, i was going to ask what got you guys mentally ready for the trials that you were going to face (esp. the first time) and if it helps you guys deal with w/e issues today (not necessarily limited to war or violence). and if people said yes, i was going to ask what alternatives you guys think may exist.

but it seems like everyone is saying unfortunately things happen already very regularly which is already much more than i was expecting. that and you guys are saying or implying that exposure to these things don't help all that much, that there's nothing like the grinder, so that pretty much answers all of my questions. as for other militaries (historic and modern) intentionally letting a few guys die, etc., i can understand where they may come from as well, it just isn't something that i think needs to be done the way the US military or even general society works.

[tozan]

What type of training could possibly prepare you for having a friend die in your arms... I certainly wasn't ready for it and even after having people die in front of you I can't say it becomes much easier... We had several guys die in training in my unit in 1976

I will admit when I see death now it does remind me how fragile life really is and how you may die slowly but the time of death is always instant...

I was a member of 4th ANGLICO and one of our squads while in training was calling an air strike and when the pilot said he was popping up I noticed a jet pop up about a mile or two away in front of us... I instantly called abort and the jet peeled up right in front of us... A split second later or if the pilot didn't respond fast enough he would have dropped a 500 pounder about 1000 meters in front of us... The splash (or kill range) of it is 1600 meters it would have been about 25 dead Marines.... So training that day was very real...