Buying guns while in the military, bringing guns to CA, CCW

[chris]

I recently inquired about purchasing firearms here in Texas. I took a copy of my orders with me and asked.

The LGS here pointed out that I'm on PCS orders as they state "Ft. Bliss, Texas" this really wasn't explained to us before arriving here. We did ask if we could buy firearms here while on our 1 year tour and the answer is yes. But of course being from CA I wanted to know more.

It was nice to find out that we could and a sigh of relief really. It sucks being a CA gun owner and living in fear of breaking some law we never heard of.

thankfully asking questions isn't illegal. this was also asked here at the PX that sells firearms as well.

[RickD427]

I recently inquired about purchasing firearms here in Texas. I took a copy of my orders with me and asked.

The LGS here pointed out that I'm on PCS orders as they state "Ft. Bliss, Texas" this really wasn't explained to us before arriving here. We did ask if we could buy firearms here while on our 1 year tour and the answer is yes. But of course being from CA I wanted to know more.

It was nice to find out that we could and a sigh of relief really. It sucks being a CA gun owner and living in fear of breaking some law we never heard of.

thankfully asking questions isn't illegal. this was also asked here at the PX that sells firearms as well.

Chris,

If you're on PCS orders to "Baja Oklahoma", then you're a resident there for purposes of federal law governing firearms (18 USC 921). Enjoy the freedom while you're there.

But do some planning ahead. California law and federal law do not treat "Residency" the same. If you keep your California-defined residency while away, and then return to the state, then you'll need to comply with PC 27585 when you come back. That means you can't bring your Texas purchased weapons with you, you have to ship them to a California FFL and handguns will need to be on the roster. There are no special provisions for military folks.

On the other hand, if you return to California as a "new resident", then PC 27560 applies. You can bring your new weapons with you and you just have to register them within 60 days. If you're still on active duty, then you are not required to register.

If you follow the PC 27560 procedure when 27585 actually applies, and the weapon is a handgun, then you have committed a felony.

[chris]

Chris,

If you're on PCS orders to "Baja Oklahoma", then you're a resident there for purposes of federal law governing firearms (18 USC 921). Enjoy the freedom while you're there.

I plan on it. please forgive me to chopping up your post. it's only for clarity.

But do some planning ahead. .

planning ahead I have done and I have not bought anything here yet.

California law and federal law do not treat "Residency" the same. If you keep your California-defined residency while away, and then return to the state, then you'll need to comply with PC 27585 when you come back. That means you can't bring your Texas purchased weapons with you, you have to ship them to a California FFL and handguns will need to be on the roster. There are no special provisions for military folks.

I have questions of course. does this apply for rifles and shotguns? So any rifles I buy I have to send to a FFL again and wait 10 F****** days? sorry for language because this is stupid.

I don't have to fill out another 4473 since one would have been filled out here in Texas?


handguns I had questions about since most if not all the handguns here in Texas wont be on the "roster". I did plan on picking up a non Californicated Sig226. I have one at home bought in CA and the ones here are no where like what we have at home. I have been confused on the Roster and non Roster handguns. I did not know that applied to military on active duty since we both know that most handguns that are out of state cannot be sold in CA.

Forgive if I'm wrong I thought the Roster didn't apply in regards to purchase of handguns if on active duty. but if I read your reply right it does apply. correct?


as for rifles I wanted to get another 10/22 or a 17 HMR since they are a tad cheaper here. not really needing to get another AR. but in general a rifle is all I was going to get.

I did here about having to go through another background check for any guns purchased out of state because CA is stupid like that. which is completely idiotic. but we know there is no logic left in CA.



I'm in no rush to buy anything at this time.

On the other hand, if you return to California as a "new resident", then PC 27560 applies. You can bring your new weapons with you and you just have to register them within 60 days. If you're still on active duty, then you are not required to register.

If you follow the PC 27560 procedure when 27585 actually applies, and the weapon is a handgun, then you have committed a felony.

Yes I will be returning to this stupid state I have not changed my residency since I have been away.

My orders end at the end of January.

can you give me a summary of PC27585. Because trying to understand this crap gives me a frickin migraine.

I have guns that I have owned in CA and bought there and will be bringing them back with me. I'm not worried about those of course since that's not an issue unless something really stupid has happened since I have been away in regards to bringing your own guns back from a trip.

[RickD427]

can you give me a summary of PC27585. Because trying to understand this crap gives me a frickin migraine.

I have guns that I have owned in CA and bought there and will be bringing them back with me. I'm not worried about those of course since that's not an issue unless something really stupid has happened since I have been away in regards to bringing your own guns back from a trip.

Chris, Don't feel bad. I was a California LEO for more than 30 years. The way the laws are written also gives me headaches.

Here's the nutshell. California defines two very different process for importing weapons into the state. California also defines "Residency" very different from the way the feds define the term.

Penal Code section 27560 defines the importation process for "New Residents." In sum, a new resident can import firearms that are in a California-legal configuration. You can transport them into the state yourself and you have 60 days to register them. The handgun roster does not apply. Military folks get special treatment in that they are not required to register while remaining on active duty.

Penal Code section 27585 defines the importation process for California residents who acquire firearms from outside of California. In sum, you cannot import them yourself. They must be shipped to an FFL for transfer to you inside California. Handguns must be on the roster. Violation is a misdemeanor for long guns (with some felony exceptions) and a felony for a handgun. There is no special treatment for military.

I have questions of course. does this apply for rifles and shotguns? So any rifles I buy I have to send to a FFL again and wait 10 F****** days? sorry for language because this is stupid.

PC 27585 does also apply to long guns, however the penalty for violation is a misdemeanor unless there is some other aggravating circumstance (Please refer to PC 27590 for a detailed description of the penalties).

I don't have to fill out another 4473 since one would have been filled out here in Texas?

I'm not an FFL, so I defer to forum members who are, but my understanding is that a 4473 is required for the transfer.

handguns I had questions about since most if not all the handguns here in Texas wont be on the "roster". I did plan on picking up a non Californicated Sig226. I have one at home bought in CA and the ones here are no where like what we have at home. I have been confused on the Roster and non Roster handguns. I did not know that applied to military on active duty since we both know that most handguns that are out of state cannot be sold in CA.

Here is the big difference between PC 27560 and PC 27585 imports. What you're proposing would be legal under 27560, but would not be legal under 27585.

Forgive if I'm wrong I thought the Roster didn't apply in regards to purchase of handguns if on active duty. but if I read your reply right it does apply. correct?

There is no roster exemption for active duty. Some folks like to argue that the "for sale to sworn members of these agencies (including military)" language contained in PC 32000(b)(4) permits such a roster exemption, but it's pretty clear that the context of the section refers to law enforcement "sworn" (like CID special agents) rather than all military members.

Yes I will be returning to this stupid state I have not changed my residency since I have been away.

Here's is the real crux. This statement places you pretty squarely under PC 27585. The problem here is that if you import under section 27560 when 27585 actually applies, then you're creating some significant criminal liability. The risk of prosecution are small, but things don't turn out well for the few folks that the legal system likes to make examples of (like Bruce Abramski).

[kemasa]

FYI, this is unofficial since it is not in writing, but I called the CA DOJ to ask the question what needs to be done with respect to a military person returning to CA with respect to firearms bought out of state when stationed outside of CA. I was told that CA residency is defined by the CA vehicle code and that CA does not consider a military person stationed out of state to be a CA resident. I was told that the procedure for a person from CA who was in the military stationed out of CA would be to fill out the new resident form. Only CA legal firearms could be brought in, no so-called a-salt weapons, but that firearms brought in would not have to be on the roster.

I was also told that when a military person is stationed in CA, CA does not consider them a resident, but they are allowed to buy firearms.

I am only relaying what I was told, so I can only say what I was told. Any reasoning would be a guess and I can't say that it is actually true or not. It was recommended that if there were any additional questions to ask an attorney, but the CA DOJ can change their view, so I am not sure if that would really help much. I asked the questions as a CA FFL, which may or may not mean anything.

[Fizzman]

I'm still confused

Forgive me, I am still confused with the whole ca vs fed "residency".

So I joined the military out of California, got stationed in WA and bought a gen4 g26(~2013). The whole time I was stationed else where I kept my ca dl and own property in CA. So now I'm stationed in CA again and brought it with me to CA. Still active duty. Am I legal?I've been here a year now and haven't registered or anything. If I'm not how do I get it legal? Can I ship it to a ffl from my house here in CA? If I am legal but is related to being active duty, what do I need to do if I am getting out in California? Please provide the references too so I can look it up. It seems as though pc27585 doesn't apply to me since I bought the gun prior to 2015. Also, how do I prove that? I didn't keep any receipt.

[aegain]

Fizzman, I'm in almost exactly the same situation - i.e. maintain property/family in CA but I'm on PCS orders to a command homeported in WA. Hoping to see an authoritative response to your question soon.

[slapchop7]

As a SELLER is an Active Duty military member required to show orders to SELL a pistol to a California resident in a PPT? Got turned down at an FFL today. Another FFL wanted prof of residency. People need to get their **** together.

[Transient]

IANAL, but I'm pretty sure The Service Members Civil Relief Act of 2009 plays a role here too.

I'm not surprised to hear CA FFLs haven't bothered to figure it out by now. If you're nonresident military stationed in CA, and your vehicle tags are from out of state, you live in off-base military housing where you don't get a utility, sewer, water, or garbage bill, and don't care for cable or satellite nor pay for internet because you treat your cell phone like a wifi hotspot and steam everything through it, and your cell bill is electronic and utilizes your address from your home state (taxes, 911 fee, etc), what additional documentation are you going to be able to show beyond printed orders, military ID, and your driver's license from your home state?

Don't even get me started on how it's actually worse for spouses, and the ATF is mum when questioned about possible conflicts with certain federal laws.

My wife and I actually discussed this topic tonight. The options were 1) pay over a thousand dollars to become CA compliant, 2) rent some space from extended family in a bordering state just to store firearms, or 3) lose all the guns in a boating accident. The insurance money from a boating accident looks very enticing.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[kemasa]

As a SELLER is an Active Duty military member required to show orders to SELL a pistol to a California resident in a PPT? Got turned down at an FFL today. Another FFL wanted prof of residency. People need to get their **** together.

You need a CA ID/DL or military ID and duty station orders, otherwise it can't be a CA PPT since that is all the DES accepts.

[jaywalker9611@gmail.com]

Update needed

Handgun Roster does not apply when you are ordered here[/U]

You may bring most of your guns with you; the Handgun Roster does not apply to moving or visiting here.

Thanks for your helpful and informative post. However, as an Active Duty Military PCSing to CA shortly this info is quite outdated and hoping you can provide updated answers to my questions. Is this still true? If so, does that mean I can sell my handgun to a private party even though it's not registered nor on the CA Roster?

Presuming your weapon is not listed in the banned-by-name group (see the Flowchart - http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf) you may add a magazine locking device ('bullet button") and use 10-round magazines in it while in CA.[/INDENT]

Do you have an updated Banned by Name Group? Since Bullet button is no more, a likes of Juggernaut Hellfighter type sufficient? How about 30rd magazines brought into the state? Since the Freedom week?

Don't worry about handgun registration

Military is exempt from registering handguns (or long guns, beginning in 2014) as a 'new resident' 'personal handgun importer'.

So long guns applies as well? Which means modified AR15 would fall into the long guns category of not needing to be registered?

Thank you very much for your helpful insight and generosity in sharing helpful information!

[RickD427]

Thanks for your helpful and informative post. However, as an Active Duty Military PCSing to CA shortly this info is quite outdated and hoping you can provide updated answers to my questions. Is this still true? If so, does that mean I can sell my handgun to a private party even though it's not registered nor on the CA Roster?

Do you have an updated Banned by Name Group? Since Bullet button is no more, a likes of Juggernaut Hellfighter type sufficient? How about 30rd magazines brought into the state? Since the Freedom week?

So long guns applies as well? Which means modified AR15 would fall into the long guns category of not needing to be registered?

Thank you very much for your helpful insight and generosity in sharing helpful information!

There have been no significant changes to the roster, from your perspective as an incoming military member. You can import lawfully configured, but off-roster, handguns during your stay. There is no need to register them so long as you remain on active duty.

Be careful with the "lawfully configured" part. A 1911 with a threaded on compensator is illegal, so too are the "Taurus Judge" and similar pistols.

There has been a significant change in the "Bullet Buttons." Originally an AR-15 equipped with a "Bullet Button" fell outside of the definition of an Assault Weapon. The law was changed and now Bullet Button equipped AR's are Assault Weapons.

If you seek to sell, via a PPT, any firearms while you're in California, stand by to be made aware of the differing definitions of 'Resident" under California and federal law. Federal law regards you as a California resident simply by virtue of your PCS orders. Nothing else matters. California considers you as a resident if you demonstrate an intent to maintain a home in California. Stuff like having a California Driver's License or ID Card matters. California has to consider you as a resident before you can do a PPT.

No change on the "Evil by Name" list.

It's a felony to bring a Large-Capacity Magazine into the state. There is a federal court injunction giving some protection to those who imported them during "Freedom Week." There is no protection for other persons importing such magazines.

Be careful using the word "Registered" when discussing firearms in California. There are two very different meanings of that word. It is used: 1) To indicate the firearm(s) have been recorded in the Automated Firearms System database maintained by the DOJ. and 2) To indicate that a weapon has been registered as an "Assault Weapon" with the DOJ. If you simply register an Assault Weapon in the AFS, you don't meet the legal requirements for registering the Assault Weapon.

As an active duty military member you should be aware that you are eligible to register your Assault Weapons, and to possess them in California, with a Military Assault Weapons Permit. Those permits are kinda like unicorns. They seem to exist just to keep military folks happy. I don't know of anyone who has actually been issued such a permit.

[jaywalker9611@gmail.com]

Thank you very much for your kind through explanation Rick, I am enlightened!

However, I'm still puzzled as to my question regarding the long gun/modified CA compliant AR 15.

Long guns ie., shotguns, (pistol grip shotgun needs to be modified? I have a Benelli Supernova pump) bolt action rifles does not need to be registered correct?

As to 'normal' Civilian AR 15s in Milspec configuration, before entering CA, as long as I modify it to comply with CA regulations, I don't need to register them just as the handguns due to my Active Duty Military status?

[rajahsoliman]

[jaywalker9611@gmail.com]

Thanks rajasoliman for clarifying!