new TC for:TRAINING AND QUALIFICATION - INDIVIDUAL WEAPONS

[Snoopy47]

TRAINING AND QUALIFICATION -
INDIVIDUAL WEAPONS

https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN17949_TC%203-20x40%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf

I thought it was funny there are only four chapters, but it's over 800 pages long

[Supersapper]

Hey Snoopy,

I downloaded it for later viewing. Is this set to be the new standard in shooting the qualifications, or is this for something specific?

Reserves/Guard have always had an issue qualifying people...now it's competition style...or so it appears.

[Snoopy47]

Hey Snoopy,

I downloaded it for later viewing. Is this set to be the new standard in shooting the qualifications, or is this for something specific?

Reserves/Guard have always had an issue qualifying people...now it's competition style...or so it appears.

My impression is this is the new Reg on individual weapon qual. I don't think anything generally changes in terms of the standards, but it provides a lot of guidance on training.

It's a lot of: Here's how we need to work to improve marksmanship, but of course no additional money or time to actually do it.

What doesn't change is marksmanship is either a unit focus (which takes support from higher) or it's not.

For example, I personally don't care about myself, and NCO's E6 and above really don't care either.

My priority is E4-E5 need to get passing qual cards for their promotion packets. Promotions to E2-E4 don't need it, and promotions to E7, WO's and Officers don't really need it either.

I have 53 bullets per soldier to qualify with this month. So there's no room for error.

Last year we did really well, 100% that went to the range weekend qualified, but I stack the odds in their favor as much as I can (25 meter qual course of fire), and remind them how to GAME the target hits (for those not great at shooting don't bother with small targets, and use extra bullets to ensure hits on larger targets)

[tomk556]

My impression is this is the new Reg on individual weapon qual. I don't think anything generally changes in terms of the standards, but it provides a lot of guidance on training.

It's a lot of: Here's how we need to work to improve marksmanship, but of course no additional money or time to actually do it.

What doesn't change is marksmanship is either a unit focus (which takes support from higher) or it's not.

For example, I personally don't care about myself, and NCO's E6 and above really don't care either.

My priority is E4-E5 need to get passing qual cards for their promotion packets. Promotions to E2-E4 don't need it, and promotions to E7, WO's and Officers don't really need it either.

I have 53 bullets per soldier to qualify with this month. So there's no room for error.

Last year we did really well, 100% that went to the range weekend qualified, but I stack the odds in their favor as much as I can (25 meter qual course of fire), and remind them how to GAME the target hits (for those not great at shooting don't bother with small targets, and use extra bullets to ensure hits on larger targets)

53 rounds?? Asides from the absurdity of that number, how did they arrive at the number 13 for sighters? One day I hope to understand why it is that units will drag SMs out on a MUTA 8 on a charter bus, have them sit around for most of it, but then only secure 53 rounds per soldier. It also drives me nuts that we'll never, NEVER, EVER touch our crew served weapons and that we have (amazingly) both ACOGs and CCOs, but aren't allowed to use them.

[Supersapper]

53 rounds?? Asides from the absurdity of that number, how did they arrive at the number 13 for sighters? One day I hope to understand why it is that units will drag SMs out on a MUTA 8 on a charter bus, have them sit around for most of it, but then only secure 53 rounds per soldier. It also drives me nuts that we'll never, NEVER, EVER touch our crew served weapons and that we have (amazingly) both ACOGs and CCOs, but aren't allowed to use them.

What's more is I don't know why we have to do that when we can, if we so chose to do so, use civilian 25 meter ranges that you could just shuttle shooters back and forth to that range. Absolutely minimal effect on operations in a Red Cycle BA weekend. We did that briefly when I was in the Guard. We'd done a MIPR with the local police range to use their ranges on given dates. It was working pretty well, since we didn't always have a full complement for a bus.

Now that I'm in the USAR, I spoke with the safety officer about it in our unit and he said that regs require USACE to approve the range; and that approval requires them to have a say in it's build.

Of all the stupid things...the range is built to civilian standards which exceed military in some cases and they're designed to stop 30-06 in many of them.

I sometimes wonder if it's the Army's duty to make sure we have patience by doing these things...

Oh...btw: I always bring my own batteries so I can use the CCO. Since qualification is hokey and strains the senses, I just want to put the bullets where they need to be as fast as possible. Usually 40/40, but once in a while a flier, but it's just done. Howver, I do try to be last on the range and offer to help "burn" the extra ammo. THATS when we get some good training.

[jcourson]

I have 53 bullets per soldier to qualify with this month.

I am starting to see how I have had army marksmanship instructors tell some of my Marines that it isn't possible to hit a bravo target at 500 yards with iron sights - nevermind that we (used to) do it every year.

[tomk556]

I am starting to see how I have had army marksmanship instructors tell some of my Marines that it isn't possible to hit a bravo target at 500 yards with iron sights - nevermind that we (used to) do it every year.

The worst is that marksmanship counts in promotion too...

Sapper: ironically enough I've had occasion to learn of regs for civilian ranges lately. PM me if you're curious, but at least for Guard they're saying any non-DOD range requires an exception to policy signed by the Director, Army National Guard. Rumor is they need more units to rotate through Roberts and SLO to improve the ranges, which is all well and good, save for that requiring (inexplicably) a MUTA 8. Hope it's better in the USAR.

[Snoopy47]

The worst is that marksmanship counts in promotion too...

Exactly. Right???????

I don't know the points anymore, but if you get perfect APFT you get 100% of the point allocation from APFT towards your promotion packet. The same goes for weapon qual. If you get 40/40 you get 100% of the point allocation.

Those point allocations for APFT and Wepaon Qual ARE THE SAME!!!!!!!!!!!

Technically................ The Army considers fitness and weapon qual equal to each other in regard to E5 and E6 promotion packets. HOWEVER, no one is going to get flagged for a non current passing weapon qualification. Failing APFT could be a career ender, and results in a deferred NCOER/OER.

Weapons Qual is NOT EVEN A BOX ON the NCOER/OER.

We got to 53 rounds per because of my total MTOE number and put in for 132 soldiers. In the end they only gave us 7,000 rounds. I'm estimating only 100 actually show up considering pre basic soldiers, and the usual no shows.

So I might actually get as much as another 17 rounds per soldier in attendance.

********

As for the range, we just straight up use an Army Range. Send a few NCO's and officers to the annual RSO course run by the range, have a few CLS soldiers and a designated ambulance, and call it good (for the most part).

[Supersapper]

The worst is that marksmanship counts in promotion too...

Sapper: ironically enough I've had occasion to learn of regs for civilian ranges lately. PM me if you're curious, but at least for Guard they're saying any non-DOD range requires an exception to policy signed by the Director, Army National Guard. Rumor is they need more units to rotate through Roberts and SLO to improve the ranges, which is all well and good, save for that requiring (inexplicably) a MUTA 8. Hope it's better in the USAR.

Pm inbound

[Snoopy47]

And....................... here it is....................

Appendix E:

E-5. Training ammunition is not resourced to units with access to an approved simulator system for those tasks. Units with access to approved systems complete the night and CBRN qualification requirements in the authorized system only. Units without access to an approved simulator system conduct the night fire and CBRN qualifications under live-fire conditions at the completion of Table VI, Qualification training (see stage 2, stage 3, and stage 4).

**********
Of the 800 pages of new training, we are only getting a few more new training scenarios on the ETS 2000 we frequent.

Nothing to see here folks. Move along, move along.

[rero360]