Constitutional Basis o "No Guns" Signs

[rdtompki]

I'm considering moving to AZ and I believe their gun-buster signs have the force of law. While I can understand certain buildings and large public gathering where a certain rationale may exist for prohibiting firearms, I don't understand the inconsistencies in legislating this broadly.

We've all seen signs to the effect that "We reserve the right to refuse anyone service", but these signs don't seem to apply to those refusing service based on, for example, sincerely held religious beliefs.

So how can businesses refuse service to someone carrying a gun, a constitutionally-protected right? Specifically, how can a state pass a law given this signage the force of law? I'm sure this has been challenged in Federal court, but the signs (and laws) still exist.

[RickD427]

I'm considering moving to AZ and I believe their gun-buster signs have the force of law. While I can understand certain buildings and large public gathering where a certain rationale may exist for prohibiting firearms, I don't understand the inconsistencies in legislating this broadly.

We've all seen signs to the effect that "We reserve the right to refuse anyone service", but these signs don't seem to apply to those refusing service based on, for example, sincerely held religious beliefs.

So how can businesses refuse service to someone carrying a gun, a constitutionally-protected right? Specifically, how can a state pass a law given this signage the force of law? I'm sure this has been challenged in Federal court, but the signs (and laws) still exist.

Here's a couple of points to consider:

1) The Constitution only applies to the actions of the federal government. Certain portions (but not the whole Constitution) apply to state governments as the result of being incorporated under the 14th Amendment.

2) The Constitution does not apply to private businesses.

3) Prior to Heller, it was unclear if the 2nd Amendment applied to private persons, or only to state militias. Heller resolved that question in favor of private persons, but only within the home. Heller did nothing to decide if the 2nd Amendment applies outside of the home. McDonald incorporated the decision.

4) That means you would have a Constitutional violation if the government placed such a sign inside your home, it's still an open question if the government places such a sign outside your home, and a private business is free to post such a sign where they wish.

[rp55]

2) The Constitution does not apply to private businesses.

Try being a restaurant and refuse service to African Americans.

And yes the consequences that you will experience are a direct result of a tortuous reading of the Interstate Commerce Clause.

[RickD427]

Try being a restaurant and refuse service to African Americans.

And yes the consequences that you will experience are a direct result of a tortuous reading of the Interstate Commerce Clause.

It's not the Constitution that will get you in trouble if you own a restaurant and deny service to African-Americans.

It's the Unruh Civil Rights Act that will get you in trouble. Please refer to Civil Code sections 51 - 51.5.

Several states, including California, have opted to provide legislation requiring private businesses to respect rights that the Constitution requires government to respect.

If the Constitution did that, there would have been no need for the Unruh Act.

Please note that the Unruh Act only provides certain categories of protection. It's range is not as broad as the Constitution. The Unruh Act provides no protection similar to that of the 2nd Amendment.

[wpod]

In AZ, the "gunbuster" signs have to meet certain criteria to be backed by law.
I believe (have to double check) it has to include the PC and be posted conspicuously by every entrance.

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[captkurt]

The specific laws in each state of going to vary. Consider here in Nevada, many places have signs forbidding weapons (the lauguage of the signs and what "weapons" they forbid vary quite a bit), but almost all of them simply reference the criminal trespass code.

So in effect, they are not forbidding the carry of weapons, enforced under law. They are informing you that as private property, do not allow such things on their property, and if you are caught violating their rules, would then be subject to criminal trespass.

While never specified in the signs, I think that the assumption (and maybe the actual criminal code), would require that they request that you leave the premises, and if you refuse, then would be subject to arrest for criminal trespass by the police.

[Mayor McRifle]

In District of Columbia v. Heller

[EBR Works]

In AZ, the "gunbuster" signs have to meet certain criteria to be backed by law.
I believe (have to double check) it has to include the PC and be posted conspicuously by every entrance.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Please correct me if I'm wrong; the AZ signs have to contain a specific graphic of a 1911 with a muzzle brake and language specified by the statute.

http://www.azleg.gov/ars/4/00229.htm

If the sign does not meet these requirements, it can be ignored.

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[wpod]

Please correct me if I'm wrong; the AZ signs have to contain a specific graphic of a 1911 with a muzzle brake and language specified by the statute.

http://www.azleg.gov/ars/4/00229.htm

If the sign does not meet these requirements, it can be ignored.

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Can't be a 1911 clone either.

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[fiddletown]

Please correct me if I'm wrong; the AZ signs have to contain a specific graphic of a 1911 with a muzzle brake and language specified by the statute....

You're wrong.

The ARS 4-229 sign requirement applies only to premises which sell alcoholic beverages by the drink. Note that Title 4 of the Arizona Revised Statutes relates to the alcoholic beverages.


See ARS 4-244 (emphasis added) --

It is unlawful:
.....

29. For any person other than a peace officer or a member of a sheriff's volunteer posse while on duty who has received firearms training that is approved by the Arizona peace officer standards and training board, the licensee or an employee of the licensee acting with the permission of the licensee to be in possession of a firearm while on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer. This paragraph shall not be construed to include a situation in which a person is on licensed premises for a limited time in order to seek emergency aid and such person does not buy, receive, consume or possess spirituous liquor. This paragraph shall not apply to:

(a) Hotel or motel guest room accommodations.

(b) The exhibition or display of a firearm in conjunction with a meeting, show, class or similar event.

(c) A person with a permit issued pursuant to section 13-3112 who carries a concealed handgun on the licensed premises of any on-sale retailer that has not posted a notice pursuant to section 4-229.

30. For a licensee or employee to knowingly permit a person in possession of a firearm other than a peace officer or a member of a sheriff's volunteer posse while on duty who has received firearms training that is approved by the Arizona peace officer standards and training board, the licensee or an employee of the licensee acting with the permission of the licensee to remain on the licensed premises or to serve, sell or furnish spirituous liquor to a person in possession of a firearm while on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer. It shall be a defense to action under this paragraph if the licensee or employee requested assistance of a peace officer to remove such person. This paragraph shall not apply to:

(a) Hotel or motel guest room accommodations.

(b) The exhibition or display of a firearm in conjunction with a meeting, show, class or similar event.

(c) A person with a permit issued pursuant to section 13-3112 who carries a concealed handgun on the licensed premises of any on-sale retailer that has not posted a notice pursuant to section 4-229....

Specifically see ARS 4-229:

4-229. Licenses; handguns; posting of notice

A. A person may carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a licensee who is an on-sale retailer unless the licensee posts a sign that clearly prohibits the possession of weapons on the licensed premises. The sign shall conform to the following requirements:

1. Be posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the general public and immediately adjacent to the liquor license posted on the licensed premises.

2. Contain a pictogram that shows a firearm within a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm.

3. Contain the words, "no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229".

B. A person shall not carry a firearm on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer if the licensee has posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section.

C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:

1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section before the violation.

2. Any one or more of the following apply:

(a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.

(b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.

(c) The licensee had posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section not more than thirty days before the violation.

D. The department of liquor licenses and control shall prepare the signs required by this section and make them available at no cost to licensees.

E. The signs required by this section shall be composed of block, capital letters printed in black on white laminated paper at a minimum weight of one hundred ten pound index. The lettering and pictogram shall consume a space at least six inches by nine inches. The letters constituting the words "no firearms allowed" shall be at least three-fourths of a vertical inch and all other letters shall be at least one-half of a vertical inch. Nothing shall prohibit a licensee from posting additional signs at one or more locations on the premises.

F. This section does not prohibit a person who possesses a handgun from entering the licensed premises for a limited time for the specific purpose of either:

1. Seeking emergency aid.

2. Determining whether a sign has been posted pursuant to subsection A of this section.

...If the sign does not meet these requirements, it can be ignored.

Only if it's on a bar or a restaurant that serves alcoholic beverages by the drink. Otherwise you'd be committing criminal trespass.

In Arizona if the premises isn't a bar or restaurant serving alcoholic drink, the operative law is the Arizona criminal trespass statute, ARS 13-1502 (emphasis added):

13-1502. Criminal trespass in the third degree; classification

A. A person commits criminal trespass in the third degree by:

1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.

2. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on the right-of-way for tracks, or the storage or switching yards or rolling stock of a railroad company.

B. Criminal trespass in the third degree is a class 3 misdemeanor.

Notice that it is criminal trespass in Arizona not only when one stays after being asked to leave. It is also criminal trespass to enter if one is on notice that entry is prohibited.

The question therefore becomes whether a "no guns" sign on private property is reasonable notice prohibiting entry by one carrying a gun. That will be up to the court, if you're unlucky.

Certainly on the face of things it looks like a "no gun" sign could well be considered reasonable notice that entry to the premises with a gun is prohibited.

[PMACA_MFG]

Please correct me if I'm wrong; the AZ signs have to contain a specific graphic of a 1911 with a muzzle brake and language specified by the statute.

http://www.azleg.gov/ars/4/00229.htm

If the sign does not meet these requirements, it can be

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...and have square ports on the comp.

[captkurt]

Something to consider, is why you want to go into those places at all?

Maybe its worse in AZ with specific laws prohibiting carry in enough areas that you care about.

While I do not carry a firearm on a regular basis, I still tend to avoid places that specifically restrict legally carried firearms...or that try to frisk and disarm what I do normally carry (usually a couple of knives, lighters, tactical pen and flashlight.) Or I make a conscious decision when going to an establishment (usually just a concert) to leave my normal carry items in the car.

[Drivedabizness]

Here's a couple of points to consider:

1) The Constitution only applies to the actions of the federal government. Certain portions (but not the whole Constitution) apply to state governments as the result of being incorporated under the 14th Amendment.

2) The Constitution does not apply to private businesses.

3) Prior to Heller, it was unclear if the 2nd Amendment applied to private persons, or only to state militias. Heller resolved that question in favor of private persons, but only within the home. Heller did nothing to decide if the 2nd Amendment applies outside of the home. McDonald incorporated the decision.

4) That means you would have a Constitutional violation if the government placed such a sign inside your home, it's still an open question if the government places such a sign outside your home, and a private business is free to post such a sign where they wish.

I think both McDonald and Ezell would challenge your item 3. Plus most of the Courts of Appeals.

[Ross]

Please correct me if I'm wrong; the AZ signs have to contain a specific graphic of a 1911 with a muzzle brake and language specified by the statute.

http://www.azleg.gov/ars/4/00229.htm

If the sign does not meet these requirements, it can be ignored.

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OP,

I've been commuting from San Diego to Yuma since the beginning of the year and have yet to see either the sign EBR has posted or anything else indicating no firearms with the exception of two gun stores (Sprauges and Sportsmans Warehouse) where it's written for all guns to be cased.

YMMV

[spfabrication]

OP,

I've been commuting from San Diego to Yuma since the beginning of the year and have yet to see either the sign EBR has posted or anything else indicating no firearms with the exception of two gun stores (Sprauges and Sportsmans Warehouse) where it's written for all guns to be cased.

YMMV

I put my pistol in a case every time I go to Sporsman's Warehouse , the case is called a holster.