REGISTRATION QUESTION

[ezmoneychuck]

About 35 years ago I bought a rifle and shotgun from a local store in my hometown.
The owner eventually retired and closed down the store.

They of course were registered to me when purchased, but I am wondering if the State or Feds know this. I seem to recall someone telling me that back in the old days, the store retained the records and they were kept onsite and not sent "anywhere".

Does anyone know if this is correct?

Thanks folks for your replies!
Chuck

[Librarian]

Depends on where you and the now-closed shop were located.

In California, no state record - long gun info was not collected by DROS until 2014.

Federally, the 4473s stay with the FFL - nothing ever sent out.

Other states? Can't say.

[jwkincal]

Federally, the 4473s stay with the FFL - nothing ever sent out.

If he "went out of business" the 4473s got sent to the giant records warehouse in DC, no?

[six seven tango]

If he "went out of business" the 4473s got sent to the giant records warehouse in DC, no?

But the 4473's are only required to be kept by the FFL for 20 years. It's possible that 20 years passed between the purchase and the FFL's retirement.

There's still the question of the FFL's log book. It has to be turned in to ATF when the FFL's license is surrendered. Does the 20 years also apply to the log book, or is that indefinite?

[CSACANNONEER]

I doubt they were "registered" at all. In fact, if you bought a long gun in CA just three years ago, the state doesn't have any info on it unless, you personally sent it to them or had it returned via a LEGR. The only paperwork with your name and info on the firearm would be on the 4473 which is retained by the FFL.

[ezmoneychuck]

Thanks guys for replying.
That's pretty much what I remember being told, but just wanted to make sure.

Thanks again!
Chuck

[Mountain Max]

Hundreds of millions of firearms are in the federal e-trace database. I would say there is a healthy chance you are in the federal database. Although 20 years passed before the shop you bought it from closed down, the ATF could have visited the shop and recorded entries in the bound book into their database. Most original owners of guns purchased from FFLs are going to be in the system. I wouldn't worry about it though unless you're a terrorist or in organized crime. The state database is a whole different beast and is the real intrusion on the 4th amendment.

[Just-in]

When a local gun store changed names, and in turn their license, I was told they sent all of their records to DOJ.

Not really relevant, but I wouldn't doubt there is a paper trail somewhere. Unless you're up to no good, I wouldn't don the tin foil hat over it.

[Jimi Jah]

They know. That's all you need to know. If you don't want them to know, build 80%.

[rm1911]

REGISTRATION QUESTION

There's probably nobody who knows the actual answer here because one doesn't exist. However, it is true the 4473's and logs had to be turned in to atf upon license not being renewed. Yes, they were to keep the records. And probably did, somewhere. (Note: many moon ago a friend and I were starting a small business out of home and he had the ffl. We operated for a few years until the clintonista regime decided we were "hobbyists" and it became very hard to renew. And, distributors were under pressure to sell to only "legitimate" gun shops. And the manufacturers, i.e. Smith, ruger, et al., well you know the politics they played and it trickled down to the distros, etc. anyways we were SOL and closed up. It wasn't that we couldn't, it was just the really couldn't. We turned in our books. I'm pretty sure they never looked at anything because let's just say my friend wasn't the best at accurate record keeping or paperwork thoroughness. All these years later neither he nor I have ever heard word one.)

But, they would have had scores of millions of docs long before a single computer database ever made its way to the dept. So, did they computerize and update scores and scores of old sales? Yeah, and the VA takes good care of our vets. Are they doing it now? Yeah, sure.

I highly suspect atf has a database. In fact, what's the law or amendment to a law that prevents it? True, there have been admins that care about the laws about as much as Stalin did. Whatever. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that every fbi Instant bgc is recorded somewhere. Not make, model, etc., but you know, name and a purchase. Which is enough for tyrants, huh. Puts you on "the list".

Another side story. Was talking to a retired lapd coupla years ago. Kali didn't automate handgun reg list until 90's and most records of sales before that were, um, lost. So, odds are good anything purchased before mid 90's is invisible. There are millions of handguns in kalifornia that are not technically "registered", though were legally purchased and dros'd and all that. Not to mention anything ppt'd before '91 is definitely invisible.

Short answer to OP's orig ?. Nah, 99.99% for certain there's not a record of anything anywhere.

[CSACANNONEER]

When a local gun store changed names, and in turn their license, I was told they sent all of their records to DOJ.

Not really relevant, but I wouldn't doubt there is a paper trail somewhere. Unless you're up to no good, I wouldn't don the tin foil hat over it.

LOL. They don't turn their Federal records over to a State agency.

[CSACANNONEER]

There's probably nobody who knows the actual answer here because one doesn't exist. However, it is true the 4473's and logs had to be turned in to atf upon license not being renewed. Yes, they were to keep the records. And probably did, somewhere. (Note: many moon ago a friend and I were starting a small business out of home and he had the ffl. We operated for a few years until the clintonista regime decided we were "hobbyists" and it became very hard to renew. And, distributors were under pressure to sell to only "legitimate" gun shops. And the manufacturers, i.e. Smith, ruger, et al., well you know the politics they played and it trickled down to the distros, etc. anyways we were SOL and closed up. It wasn't that we couldn't, it was just the really couldn't. We turned in our books. I'm pretty sure they never looked at anything because let's just say my friend wasn't the best at accurate record keeping or paperwork thoroughness. All these years later neither he nor I have ever heard word one.)

But, they would have had scores of millions of docs long before a single computer database ever made its way to the dept. So, did they computerize and update scores and scores of old sales? Yeah, and the VA takes good care of our vets. Are they doing it now? Yeah, sure.

I highly suspect atf has a database. In fact, what's the law or amendment to a law that prevents it? True, there have been admins that care about the laws about as much as Stalin did. Whatever. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that every fbi Instant bgc is recorded somewhere. Not make, model, etc., but you know, name and a purchase. Which is enough for tyrants, huh. Puts you on "the list".

Another side story. Was talking to a retired lapd coupla years ago. Kali didn't automate handgun reg list until 90's and most records of sales before that were, um, lost. So, odds are good anything purchased before mid 90's is invisible. There are millions of handguns in kalifornia that are not technically "registered", though were legally purchased and dros'd and all that. Not to mention anything ppt'd before '91 is definitely invisible.

Short answer to OP's orig ?. Nah, 99.99% for certain there's not a record of anything anywhere.

E-trace is a tool used to trace firearms used in crimes. If they have a comprehensive list of all firearms sold in the US, they are violating the law.

No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary’s [1] authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.
(b) The Attorney General shall give not less than ninety days public notice, and shall afford interested parties opportunity for hearing, before prescribing such rules and regulations.
(c) The Attorney General shall not prescribe rules or regulations that require purchasers of black powder under the exemption provided in section 845(a)(5) of this title to complete affidavits or forms attesting to that exemption.

[Mountain Max]

Here's an interesting read on e-trace

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/10/robert-farago/atf-etrace-revealed-backdoor-national-firearms-registration-scheme/