Sorry another AR Pistol question..Shortest barrel length?

[Wykyd]

Sorry i know not another ar pistol question

But i have tried searching and i cannot find concrete evidence on this. What is the shortest barrel I can get? I thought i read an ATF letter that said 8.5 inches but some threads on cal guns say 6 inches or no limitations. I think with the smaller barrels i have to permanently affix the muzzle device? There is a good post on AR Pistols but i didn't see where he mentioned shortest barrel length.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=887242

[Rock6.3]

The permanently affixed muzzle device is for rifles (which is where the minimum barrel length rules apply).

During the process of SSE you need to pay attention to barrel length and overall length rules:

[ke6guj]

there is no legal minimum length required for an AR-pistol that you might possess.

you do have to worry about how short a barrel you can have on it and have it still run. once you get below 10", they get more temperamental about running right.

[Quiet]

Federal laws/regulations:
Per BATFE, there is no minimum barrel length for a handgun.


CA laws/regulations:
Due to CA's unsafe handgun laws, it is illegal to build an "unsafe handgun". [PC 32000(a)]
Which means you must build your AR Pistol in such a way that it is exempt from CA's unsafe handgun laws. This is done by building it into a dimensionally compliant single-shot pistol, which requires a minimum 6" barrel length and minimum 10.5" overall length. [PC 32100(b)]

A "handgun" is a firearm with a barrel length of less than 16". [PC 16530(a)]


Conclusion:
When building an AR Pistol the firearm must have a barrel length that is 6" or greater but less than 16" and must be made as a single-shot pistol.

After it's made as a dimesionally compliant single-shot pistol, it can be legally modified to have any length barrel and to be a semi-auto pistol with a fixed 10 round magazine.




Penal Code 32000
(a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.

Penal Code 32100Penal Code 16530
(a) As used in this part, the terms "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person," "pistol," and "revolver" apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(b) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person," "pistol," or "revolver" from also being found to be a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun.

[glock_this]

You can find plenty of 7.5" barrel builds (sans muzzle device) and no pinning needed as it is not a rifle.

The other issues with trying to go super short is finding a gas tube. I would think that would be tougher. Would likely have to have one made. But on a 7.5" pistol build gas tubes are easy to be had.

And then also handguards. Unless you have some overlap of handguard over muzzle device, which is normal and common and even looks good, but you start getting much shorter than 7.5" barrel with a muzzle device and even the shortest handguards will be to long. Unless someone makes some real stubby handguards I have not seen. Or, unless you are going to run your pistol like they did in Escape From New York




And also it starts to get unmanageable to use the shorter you go. IMHO, having both a 10.5 and 7.5, I would not try to go below a 7.5" as then it opens a can of worms.

[SNCaliber]

I have a 7.5" barrel AR pistol, haven't seen very many builds with a shorter barrel than 7.5"

[Quiet]

I have a 7.5" barrel AR pistol, haven't seen very many builds with a shorter barrel than 7.5"

Only ones I've seen with shorter than 7.5" barrels were in .22LR.

[Wykyd]

Awesome info thank you all!!! 7.5 is what I wanted to do so this is perfect information!!!

[glock_this]

Only ones I've seen with shorter than 7.5" barrels were in .22LR.

Like this? I would love to have one of these

[Tincon]

After it's made as a dimesionally compliant single-shot pistol, it can be legally modified to have any length barrel and to be a semi-auto pistol with a fixed 10 round magazine.

That is pure speculation on your part, unsupported by any case law or statutory definition. As you correctly point out, manufacturing an unsafe handgun is illegal:

Penal Code 32000
(a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.

[ke6guj]

That is pure speculation on your part, unsupported by any case law or statutory definition. As you correctly point out, manufacturing an unsafe handgun is illegal:

so, in your opinion, would it be illegal to take an on-roster Glock 17 and install a Lonewolf extended barrel? or duracoating the entire firearm FDE? Its no longer in its rostered configuration and would appear to be an unsafe handgun. AFAIK, a dealer would not be able to transfer that handgun as a rostered handgun. Now, did you just manufacture that unsafe handgun, or did you merely modify your legally-owned handgun into a different configuration?

[SkyHawk]

That is pure speculation on your part, unsupported by any case law or statutory definition. As you correctly point out, manufacturing an unsafe handgun is illegal:

It is also the speculation of thousands of others, including FFLs, who are selling and buying semi autos every day using SSE then modifying them before they leave the shop, walking out the door with barrels far less than 6" and OAL less than 10.5" - presumably a practice that has been vetted by many lawyers including those from CGF.

[AlexDD]

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=924206

[Tincon]

so, in your opinion, would it be illegal to take an on-roster Glock 17 and install a Lonewolf extended barrel?

I'm not giving you any legal opinion. I'm telling you what the law says. Make your own interpretations.

You have Penal Code 32000(a) which makes manufacturing illegal:

Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.

And you have the courts defining manufacturing using the canon of statutory interpretation where and definition of the word is absent from the statute:

Legislature in other contexts has defined manufacturing to mean making, preparing or processing. (citations omitted) People v. Jackson, 218 Cal. App. 3d 1493, 1503, 267 Cal. Rptr. 841, 847 (Ct. App. 1990).

and

[T]he words "manufactures," "produces" and "processes" do not have separate technical meanings apart from those attributed to them in general usage. (See People v. Combs (1985) 165 Cal. App. 3d 422, 427 [211 Cal.Rptr. 617].) Both the dictionary definition and the commonsense, everyday usage of these terms entail notions of the ongoing and progressive making, assembly or creation of an item by hand or machine. (Ibid.; People v. Tierce, supra, 165 Cal. App. 3d at p. 266.). Jackson at 1503.

Draw your own conclusions, but the risks seem pretty clear to me.

It is also the speculation of thousands of others, including FFLs, who are selling and buying semi autos every day using SSE then modifying them before they leave the shop, walking out the door with barrels far less than 6" and OAL less than 10.5" - presumably a practice that has been vetted by many lawyers including those from CGF.

That's a poor legal argument, and one that would be given exactly zero credit in a courtroom. Lots of people have said the same things about Tannerite (no CGF involvement, but other lawyers), and I still see it for sale in many places in CA. Yet there is at least one calgunner convicted and incarcerated for Tannerite. These arguments, predictably, were of no help to him. Speaking of CGF legal positions, why don't you ask them what ever happened to NeRF frames? Or those .22 magazines that Gene said would be "famous."

Your use of "presumably" also jumps out at me. I have yet to see a single lawyer, CGF affiliated or otherwise, come on here and give a legal opinion on this issue.

[Librarian]

This 32000 manufacturing issue bleeds over into lots of threads.

Lets have a more-or-less final and complete discussion here.

32000 does indeed ban manufacturing of an 'unsafe handgun'.

What evidence do you have that a court has interpreted 'manufacture' of an unsafe handgun the way you are correctly saying is a possibility?

Without evidence, I think you need to tone it down. You may be right; you may be wrong; you're free to remind folks that untested things have some risk.