Mosin Obrez Cal Legality?

[Capybara]

What does the PC and handgun roster say about obtaining something like this? Would a bolt action, repeating, dimensionally compliant Mosin handgun like this one be possible to buy, import or create in California? Or must a bolt action, repeating, dimensionally compliant handgun be on the roster?

If not, what PC am I missing? If so, cool. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/926854620

[Librarian]

"We can convert your Mosin or provide a donor for a conversion"

Short-barreled Rifle - 18 USC 921 (a)(8)

(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more
barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a
rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon,
as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

and CA PC 17170

As used in Sections 16530 and 16640, Sections 17720 to 17730, inclusive,
Section 17740, Article 1 (commencing with Section 27500) of Chapter 4 of
Division 6 of Title 4, and Article 1 (commencing with Section 33210) of
Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title 4, "short-barreled rifle" means any of
the following:
(a) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(b) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(c) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or
otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than
26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

Looks like the gun you reference fits in that definition. But the gunbroker link and the LugerMan site don't give the lengths, barrel or overall.

[Capybara]

"We can convert your Mosin or provide a donor for a conversion"

Short-barreled Rifle - 18 USC 921 (a)(8) and CA PC 17170

Looks like the gun you reference fits in that definition. But the gunbroker link and the LugerMan site don't give the lengths, barrel or overall.

Doh! an SBR would obviously be a no-no for us subjects.

I seem to recall in the Calguns 2015 days, weren't a few Calgunners torch cutting Mosin receivers into 3-4 pieces to "destroy" the rifle legally, then re-welding them back together, creating a new "Other" or handgun? Would destroying the receiver per ATF specs by torch cutting it into 3 or 4 pieces make it so it "had never been a rifle"? Not planning on doing this, stumbled across this on Gunbroker and it piqued my curiosity if there was a legal way to get one of these or make one in Ca. legally?

[223556]

Now that would literally be a hand cannon! Fireballs for days and a broken wrist I’m sure.

[SkyHawk]

"Due to multiple questions about this conversion I am attaching a refrence form an ATF website. We are Class 07 and our name is on this newlly manufactured pistol"


So this is a legit new made firearm. Which means it is not a conversion from a rifle for purposes of the laws we are worried about.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/if-i-purchase-firearm-and-manufactureremanufacture-it-different-firearm-do-i-need-report

However, I don't know if it qualifies as a roster exempt bolt action pistol because it is not single shot. See this post which discusses a very similar bolt action pistol

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=24338415&postcount=7

[Capybara]

Thanks SkyHawk, I'll check it out. This is definitely just a curiosity thing for me. An Obrez is not a practical gun at all.

[Quiet]

Doh! an SBR would obviously be a no-no for us subjects.

I seem to recall in the Calguns 2015 days, weren't a few Calgunners torch cutting Mosin receivers into 3-4 pieces to "destroy" the rifle legally, then re-welding them back together, creating a new "Other" or handgun? Would destroying the receiver per ATF specs by torch cutting it into 3 or 4 pieces make it so it "had never been a rifle"? Not planning on doing this, stumbled across this on Gunbroker and it piqued my curiosity if there was a legal way to get one of these or make one in Ca. legally?

Under Federal laws...
You can not legally make a Title 1 Rifle into a Title 1 Handgun, the resulting firearm is considered a Title 2 Short Barrel Rifle which requires BATFE approval to make.
You can legally destroy multiple Title 1 Rifles and use the parts to make a Title 1 Handgun.


The CA legal "Oberz" style handguns that have been made, were made from several destroyed Mosin-Nagant receivers.
Receivers are destroyed per BATFE specifications (cut up in three different pieces).
The cut up receiver parts are then welded together to make a "new" receiver, which can then be legally used to make a Title 1 Handgun.

I believe the forum member that did this was using two Mosin-Nagant rifle receivers that were destroyed per BATFE specifications to make one Mosin-Nagant pistol receiver.

The forum member also did this pre-2015, when SSE was still allowed and before CA self-made firearm laws were enacted.

Pre-2015, the self-made handgun had to be made into a dimensionally compliant single-shot pistol, after which it could then be legally modify it to be a bolt-action repeating pistol.

Post-2018, the self-made handgun needs to be registered & engraved with CA DOJ info and made into a dimensionally compliant bolt-action/break-open single-shot pistol and kept configured that way, while it remains in CA.

[joefrank64k]

This bit from that ATF page is interesting:

You are a licensed manufacturer (type 07 or type 10 FFL) and obtain a rifle from a licensee other than a type 07 or type 10 FFL, or from a non-licensee. You then remanufacture the rifle into a pistol and sell it. This would be included in your AFMER report because your modification resulted in a change to the firearm’s type (i.e. from rifle to pistol).

I understand that an ATF web page isn't law, but they seem to be saying an 07 or 10 can change the firearm type.

Hmmm....

ETA: From the GB listing:

We can convert your Mosin or provide a donor for a conversion

[Capybara]

Thanks for the good discussion gang, some interesting legal and ATF points here.

[sbo80]

If they are considering it a "new gun" it's because it gets new serial, and pay a new excise tax etc. They may not have to cut it up first, being licensed to actually manufacture firearms. A private person with no FFL would have to do the cut-up thing (assuming not in CA).
Originally the Obrez was just a way to salvage an otherwise broken rifle. The Russians were so short on weapons, any way to keep one more thing that goes boom, was worth it.

[Spyder]

If there was a legal and reasonably priced way to do it, I would. I like ridiculous things. But legality questions aside, that's more than I'd want to pay for it.

[bigstick61]

From what I recall, until 2011, it was possible to SBR or SBS a C&R Title 1 rifle or shotgun and have it retain its C&R status, which would have also obviated the need for a CA DWP, as I understand it. My recollection is that the ATF issued a regulatory change that made it so that such conversions were considered an entirely new firearm for C&R purposes. Not sure if this is mirrored by CA laws and regulations.