Residency of students attending out of state schools

[Chewy65]

Does a person who leaves the state to get an education elsewhare remain a resident of California for purposes of firearms law? I have some recollection of many thinking that they did, but was that in the context of the younger student who intends to return to Califonia and remains dependent on their parents. They often kept their CDL up. I am wondering whether one would no longer be considered a resident if they were over 21 when the left the state, no longer were their parents' dependent, cancelled thier CDL, attended graduate school out of state, and did not wish to return to California but hoped their home in the mid-west. Perhaps most importantly, they never wanted to return to California, but could not refuse a medical residency offerd by prestigious institution.

I don't think that such a student would properly be considered a resident of California while he was out of state. Your thoughts?

[SharedShots]

What does being a student leaving the state have to do with anything if they are leaving the state permanently? They are either changing their residency on a permanent basis or they are not.

"...but could not refuse a medical residency offerd by prestigious institution."

They would be forced? How does that work? I get it but they do have a choice, the alternative choices just might not be the ones they want.

They can leave the state, establish residency in another state and later return just like anyone else. If they are a student in an out of state student program then they haven't really given up their California residency or perhaps its a fraud to gain financial benefit? I'm not implying in any way that is the case but how does someone attend school in an out of state program (other than California), claim they are no longer a resident of the state (California) but want to not be a resident of another state to obtain firearms? IMO





.

[Chewy65]

What does being a student leaving the state have to do with anything if they are leaving the state permanently? They are either changing their residency on a permanent basis or they are not. Correct.

"...but could not refuse a medical residency offerd by prestigious institution."

They would be forced? How does that work? I get it but they do have a choice, the alternative choices just might not be the ones they want. A Hobson's choice at best. They are forced for all practical purposes, since virtually medical centers that participate in the Match agree not to admit anyone to a program if that person fails to attend the one to which they were matched.

They can leave the state, establish residency in another state and later return just like anyone else. If they are a student in an out of state student program then they haven't really given up their California residency or perhaps its a fraud to gain financial benefit? I'm not implying in any way that is the case but how does someone attend school in an out of state program (other than California), claim they are no longer a resident of the state (California) but want to not be a resident of another state to obtain firearms? IMO .

Your last paragraph hits the nail on the head. The controlling issue being if a Californian remained a resident of the state under California law when they go to attend school out of state. Many have concluded that one who goes out of state for college remains a resident of California and in many situations I think they are correct. Those situations basically be those in which the student intends to return to California wheneve they are absent, which is typical of many students who remain their parents' dependent, and who's fixed, permament residence is Mom and Dad's. While that may be the case of some medical students, I think such a blanket conclusion is a poor fit those who do not intend to return to Califonia upon finishing graduate studies and cease to be dependents of Mom and Dad.

I am not certain that I understand the financial benefit issue, but I suppose that some might claim to residency in the other state in order to avoid paying the higher out of state student tuition often charged. That sort of begs the question, since there be no fraud if the student indeed became a resident of that state. Regardless, assume the school charges out-of-state tuition for the entire time a student is enrolled, if they were not a resident for the year prior to their initial enrollment. Hence there is no financial benefit to be gained by claiming to have moved out of state.

Re claiming to be a resident of another state to buy firearms. I suppose someone might enroll out of state so they can buy off roster firearms, but there is nothing fraudulent or illegal if they genuinely ceased to be a resident of this state.

[not-fishing]

Check out South Dakota, all you have to do is live in a motel for a day then you can apply for State Residence.

1. You'll need a South Dakota address and the ability to receive mail sent to that address.

2. You must complete PS Form 1583 to show your "permanent change of address" with USPS.

3. You must be physically present to apply for a South Dakota Driver’s License. To receive your first SD driver's license, you must stay one night in a campground, hotel, airbnb, or motel in SD and show a receipt* to the driver's license office. To keep your SDDL, you must stay one day in SD every five years.

https://mylrc.sdlegislature.gov/api/Documents/207175.pdf

Now for a Hunting / Fishing license most states require a year of residency.

For College in-state tuition each state has a different set of rules.

[SharedShots]

https://mylrc.sdlegislature.gov/api/Documents/207175.pdf

Now for a Hunting / Fishing license most states require a year of residency.

For College in-state tuition each state has a different set of rules.

There is one minor thing to consider. A person in a state is subject to the laws of that state. Just because one state accepts residency (such as in your example) doesn't mean California recognizes that residency in lieu of the ones it thinks you've established or maintained in California, as many people have discovered when they establish residency in another state only to find out that California still considers them a California resident. This happens when people move away and maintain some connection even something innocuous like a rental property and find out they owe lots of back taxes on their income and the penalties to boot.

So long as you don't return to California, not a huge problem but if you do return for any reason and even for a short stay, California can and likely will impose some rather severe consequences upon you if certain things happen. Any number of things can happen to trigger action by California, it could be as simple as a traffic stop or anything else bringing you into contact with enforcement agencies like the FTB for example.

In the case of the question, it doesn't matter if someone is a student anymore than it matters if they are not. You are free to attend school wherever you want. Residency however is something different and California doesn't often look at it the way other states do. It's almost like citizenship. There are countries that recognize dual citizenship, the USA does not. You'd face an impossible task of claiming the protections of being a citizen from another country while in the USA. You also couldn't leave the USA on a passport from another country and then run to the US Embassy or Consulate begging protection as a USA citizen/perm resident without creating a serious jeopardy for yourself.

Before buying a gun out of state and then returning to California thinking you aren't a resident of California (and you previously were) check real good and be 100% certain of your residency otherwise the problem you don't think you have could be one of the biggest ones you have. Another state is unlikely to come to your aid and help you.

Age 21 also has nothing to do with it. You can be 18 years old, move to another state for any reason, school or not and establish residency in that other state. The only thing that matters is if you really do cease being a resident of California, not in your eyes but in California's eyes. The costs to you personally aren't worth it if the genuine reason is to buy some guns in a another state and bring them into California.

Anyone notice the common theme in threads similar to this one? It seems like sooner or later it all comes down to buying guns outside of California and then bringing them back in. No matter what the explanations are it always comes down to a wink-wink situation. It happens with cars, trucks and motorcycles too and there are enough examples made of people doing it to figure out there are better ways to buy such things.


IMO



.

[Chewy65]

Check out South Dakota, all you have to do is live in a motel for a day then you can apply for State Residence.

1. You'll need a South Dakota address and the ability to receive mail sent to that address.

2. You must complete PS Form 1583 to show your "permanent change of address" with USPS.

3. You must be physically present to apply for a South Dakota Driver’s License. To receive your first SD driver's license, you must stay one night in a campground, hotel, airbnb, or motel in SD and show a receipt* to the driver's license office. To keep your SDDL, you must stay one day in SD every five years.

https://mylrc.sdlegislature.gov/api/Documents/207175.pdf

Now for a Hunting / Fishing license most states require a year of residency.

For College in-state tuition each state has a different set of rules.

The issue here is not whether another state considers you a resident, but when under California law a person attending school out of the state remains a California resident. I am just saying that while those younger students attending school may properly remain California residents, even though they have also establihed residency per the laws of the other state, for a plethora of reasons tending to prove that they are no longer domiciled in this state. This is apparent if California is NOT "the state where a person has his or her true, fixed, and permanent home and principal residence and to which he or she has manifested the intention of returning whenever he or she is absent."

While an undergraduate student may keep a true, fixed, permanent home in California, retain a CDL, and remain registeed to vote in the state, as wll as other things tending to manifest an intention to return whenever absent, such is often not the case of an older graduate student pursuing professional degrees. Especially ones no longer dependent on their parents.

[jeremiah12]

As an undergraduate, I left CA and went to Oregon to attend college. I paid my own way, I was not a dependent on my parents but because I came from CA, Oregon considered me an out-of-state student the entire time I was there so I paid out of state tuition. This was from 1982 to 1985. There out of state tuition was lower than the in-state fees in CA and and the cost of living was much lower. I also had a decent job.

I got an Oregon DL and registered my car in Oregon, at that time it was $20 for two years. I also did not have to deal with CA smog. At that time I had no plans to return to CA.

Well, things changed and I was accepted to graduate school in CA. My health was bad in Oregon. I am highly alergic to to molds and mildews and the Oregon rains grow that everywhere. My asthma was bad and I had to move to a much drier climate.

When I returned to CA, the DMV, hit me with late fees and penalties. CA considered me a resident that entire time and because the car had been registered in CA prior, and I was an out-of-state student while in Oregon, that was good enough for CA to consider me a resident and so I should have registered my vehicle in CA.

I had swapped the engine while in OR, it was a 65 Mustang, and that caused even more problems because I had to go to a referee station and then I had to spend money to bring it up to the 1975 smog standards because that was the year engine I put into it.

Then I had to deal with the FTB, yep, I had to file back taxes because I had not filed CA taxes. I had to file CA taxes as a CA resident and then refile my OR taxes as a non-resident and pay the non-resident rate. It took me a few years to pay off the back taxes and penalties.

So I learned, it does not matter what anyone thinks, it matters only what CA thinks unless you are willing to hire an attorney to fight them. I was a poor graduate student at the time and it was cheaper to pay up than hire and attorney to fight it and possible lose and pay even more.

With that said,the state generally only goes after those that catch their attention.

They would have never noticed me if I had my wife registered our car. We were married in Oregon. If I had known in advanced, I would have had her registered the vehicle first in her name and they would not have connected me to the vehicle and having it registered in CA for several years before moving out of CA then returning a few years later. At that time, many people in CA were registering in OR to save money and the DMV was cracking down on that.

Look at the totality of the situation for your son. Where was he registered to vote? What state issued his DL or ID? Where is his car registered? Where is his bank? Did he totally support himself or did you give him any money to help meet his needs (other than gifts for his birthday or holidays)? Did he come back to CA for school breaks?

Medical school is different because nobody knows where they will end up for their residency. You can state your preferences but CA is popular and South Dakota is not so much so some end up in places they do not like. They can move on after their residency is completed. So one cannot really say where one intends to go for their residency.

For purchasing firearms, remember, the ATF says for college students, they are a resident of the state they are residing in while attending college and if they are attending as an out of state student, they are a resident of their home state when they return.

This is where it gets sticky. If CA considers your son a CA resident during the time he was away, then he cannot self-import the guns he purchased when he was away at school. He has to have them sent to a CA FFL to be DROSed to him. He could send them to a FFL as a gift to you.

This is why I do not ask these questions in an open forum. I have two family members that are attorneys. One worked for the state of CA in 4 different areas before she retired and her advice is when dealing with the state, make sure you are following the letter of the law because some of the attorneys she worked with are there to make a name for themselves and climb the ladder and they do not care who they trample to do that. Innocent mistakes will be used against you.

I follow the advice I have been given and just pay an attorney for real legal advice if I cannot find the answer on my own using Google-Fu or if I am not completely sure.

[Chewy65]

As an undergraduate, I left CA and went to Oregon to attend college. I paid my own way, I was not a dependent on my parents but because I came from CA, Oregon considered me an out-of-state student the entire time I was there so I paid out of state tuition. This was from 1982 to 1985. There out of state tuition was lower than the in-state fees in CA and and the cost of living was much lower. I also had a decent job.

I got an Oregon DL and registered my car in Oregon, at that time it was $20 for two years. I also did not have to deal with CA smog. At that time I had no plans to return to CA.

Well, things changed and I was accepted to graduate school in CA. My health was bad in Oregon. I am highly alergic to to molds and mildews and the Oregon rains grow that everywhere. My asthma was bad and I had to move to a much drier climate.

When I returned to CA, the DMV, hit me with late fees and penalties. CA considered me a resident that entire time and because the car had been registered in CA prior, and I was an out-of-state student while in Oregon, that was good enough for CA to consider me a resident and so I should have registered my vehicle in CA.

I had swapped the engine while in OR, it was a 65 Mustang, and that caused even more problems because I had to go to a referee station and then I had to spend money to bring it up to the 1975 smog standards because that was the year engine I put into it.

Then I had to deal with the FTB, yep, I had to file back taxes because I had not filed CA taxes. I had to file CA taxes as a CA resident and then refile my OR taxes as a non-resident and pay the non-resident rate. It took me a few years to pay off the back taxes and penalties.

So I learned, it does not matter what anyone thinks, it matters only what CA thinks unless you are willing to hire an attorney to fight them. So true. I was a poor graduate student at the time and it was cheaper to pay up than hire and attorney to fight it and possible lose and pay even more.

With that said,the state generally only goes after those that catch their attention.

They would have never noticed me if I had my wife registered our car. We were married in Oregon. If I had known in advanced, I would have had her registered the vehicle first in her name and they would not have connected me to the vehicle and having it registered in CA for several years before moving out of CA then returning a few years later. At that time, many people in CA were registering in OR to save money and the DMV was cracking down on that.

Look at the totality of the situation for your son. Where was he registered to vote? What state issued his DL or ID? Where is his car registered? Where is his bank? Did he totally support himself or did you give him any money to help meet his needs (other than gifts for his birthday or holidays)? All were changed to his new state. Did he come back to CA for school breaks? Sometimes, but mosts often he either spent breaks there or in Nevada, where his wife attended O.D. school and later did a medical residency

Medical school is different because nobody knows where they will end up for their residency. You can state your preferences but CA is popular and South Dakota is not so much so some end up in places they do not like. They can move on after their residency is completed. So one cannot really say where one intends to go for their residency. This is also true, but it is best to try and do your residency in the part of the country that you hope to make your life.

For purchasing firearms, remember, the ATF says for college students, they are a resident of the state they are residing in while attending college and if they are attending as an out of state student, they are a resident of their home state when they return.

This is where it gets sticky. If CA considers your son a CA resident during the time he was away, then he cannot self-import the guns he purchased when he was away at school. He has to have them sent to a CA FFL to be DROSed to him. He could send them to a FFL as a gift to you. True, with a twist. While for practical purposes (the cost of hiring an attorney) what matters is whether he remained a CA resident, in this situation legal costs are not an issue. Still, it may be simpler to have the gun imported through an FFL.

This is why I do not ask these questions in an open forum. I have two family members that are attorneys. One worked for the state of CA in 4 different areas before she retired and her advice is when dealing with the state, make sure you are following the letter of the law because some of the attorneys she worked with are there to make a name for themselves and climb the ladder and they do not care who they trample to do that. Innocent mistakes will be used against you. Good point. Should any wanna be hot dog try to make their bones by breaking my son's, they are going to set a few minefields.

I follow the advice I have been given and just pay an attorney for real legal advice if I cannot find the answer on my own using Google-Fu or if I am not completely sure.

I rarely am ever completely sure and I spent over 30 years as a litigator. In fact, were I completley confident it usually turned out that I was in for an ugly surprise. Perhaps that is why I usually was found to be overly thorough.

[Chewy65]

This is time to be scared, as I am convinced that under California law he no longer was a resident of California shortly after to going outside the state .

After leaving for school, he no longer had "true, fixed, and permanent home and principal residence" in the State of California. Even were our place to be considered a "true, fixed, and permanent home", which it wasn't, his principal residence was either an apartment or a house he lived in off campus. A principle residence is usually determined by where you spend time and in this case he spent aprroximately 95% of the time there.

Within the first year after going off to school he registered to vote in his new state. See VC 12505(a)(1)(A) regarding the presumption that one is a resident of the address of where they register to vote.

Nor did he keep his CDL. It was cancelled when he got a license in the new state. He also registered his car there. He will have to change those back to California when he moves back.

Nothing he did manifested an intention to return here whenever absent from the Bear Republic State.

At most, he manifested an intention to move to California when he agreed to move should he Match with a program located in California. Even then his top pick was outside the state.

A very enlightened cg member noted that moving to California to attend a medical residency might be treated similar to moving out of the state to attend college. I have not taken a hard look at that, but have noted that a medical residency is considered both an educational program and employment.

Moreover, he he rated this California program his number two pick becaue he realized that advantages of doing a residency in California. One being it is easier to find a position as a Calforna attending or with a California practice if you do your residency here.

For your own selves please do not apply the above, but seek the advice of a knowledgeable firearms attorney. For my boy, if push comes to shove we willl see how the CAG fares with the private attorney statute and in regard to an award of attorney fees.

Besides, my son is concerned that I lack mental stimuli in retirement.