Destructive Device Collection Permit

[10.5AR]

After doing some research by reading the California Code of Regulations and asking around the CA DOJ Destructive Device Permit for the purpose of collecting appears to be the only shall issue Dangerous Weapons Permit available. I am interested in applying for it but I have some questions regarding the application process and storage requirements.

-Does an agent from the CA DOJ interview me during the process and what kind of background research does an agent do besides the background check to determine eligibility to possess a firearm and contacting listed references? I understand it's a bit more thorough but to what extent.

-The storage requirements mention that the doors must be solid core and with deadbolt locks or the equivalent. What is "equivalent" to the DOJ? Would deadlatch locks count as an equivalent because it's the same in regards to a deadbolt lock except the fact that the door locks behind you?

-Do you know anyone that has applied for this permit in particular and if so how did the application process go?

Any information on this topic is greatly appreciated especially from those who have gone through this process.

[swell1957]

Posted this link in the FFL forum.

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dealer-vendor

DOJ site says any applicant that applies for Dangerous Weapons Permit (DD, AW, SBR, etc.) must have an 09, 10 or 11 FFL. Trying to determine if this is a new requirement or what!

As far as collecting being "good cause" for DWP, I doubt it.

[swell1957]

Here's some info on the collection of DDs:

CA Code of Regulations

[10.5AR]

[QUOTE](b) No permit or license shall be issued to any applicant who fails to establish good cause for such permit or license and that such permit or license would not endanger the public safety.

(c) To establish good cause, an applicant must provide the Department with clear and convincing evidence that there is a bona fide market or public necessity for the issuance of a dangerous weapons permit or license and that the applicant can satisfy that need without endangering public safety. Except as provided by Penal Code Section 12095, good causes recognized by the Department to establish a bona fide necessity for issuance of dangerous weapons permits or licenses include the following:

(1) Retail sales.

(2) Training, research and development pursuant to government contract.

(3) Use as props in commercial motion picture or television production.

(4) Possession for the purpose of maintaining a collection of destructive devices as defined in Penal Code section 12301 but such possession shall not be allowed for short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles, machine guns or assault weapons.

(5) Repair and maintenance of dangerous weapons lawfully possessed by others.

(6) Use of assault weapons in activities sanctioned by law enforcement agencies or government military agencies by members of those agencies.

(d) No permit or license shall be issued to any applicant who fails to comply with local zoning restrictions or local fire-protective services regulations or ordinances.

(e) The Department shall provide a notice of each permit or license issued to the Chief of Police or Sheriff having jurisdiction over the licensee or permittee's location. Copies of outstanding licenses and permits shall be provided to the Chief or Sheriff of jurisdiction upon request.
/QUOTE]

[QUOTE](a) Documentation required to determine bona fide necessity for collecting destructive devices includes the following:

(1) A written statement from applicant certifying that he is a bona fide collector for use in a public display. The statement must include the weapons or ordinance of interest to the collector, an estimate of the intended size of the collection, and a statement that the applicant will or will not engage in sales or trading activity.

(2) A written statement from applicant certifying that the weapon or ordinance will not be fired or discharged.
/QUOTE]

These are the Code of Regulations I was referring to. It seems that collecting qualifies as good cause to obtain a DD permit but not any other DOJ permit.

[swell1957]

These are the Code of Regulations I was referring to. It seems that collecting qualifies as good cause to obtain a DD permit but not any other DOJ permit.

Gotcha. I bet this is their out. How can one prove this?

A written statement from applicant certifying that he is a bona fide collector of destructive devices

[Quiet]

-The storage requirements mention that the doors must be solid core and with deadbolt locks or the equivalent. What is "equivalent" to the DOJ? Would deadlatch locks count as an equivalent because it's the same in regards to a deadbolt lock except the fact that the door locks behind you?

If it meets the requirements will be determined when the stoarge location(s) and vehicle(s) are inspected as part of the compliance requirements for having a DWP for DD. [PC 18910]


Penal Code 18910
(a) Except as provided in subdivision (b), the Department of Justice shall, for every person, firm, or corporation to whom a permit is issued under this article, annually conduct an inspection for security and safe storage purposes, and to reconcile the inventory of destructive devices.
(b) A person, firm, or corporation with an inventory of fewer than five devices that require any Department of Justice permit shall be subject to an inspection for security and safe storage purposes, and to reconcile inventory, once every five years, or more frequently if determined by the department.

11 CCR 4141 Security Requirements.
The following is a description of required security for storing and transporting machineguns, short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles, assault weapons and destructive devices:
(a) Exterior Building Security Requirements
(1) All perimeter doors to the building shall be solid core and have dead-bolt locks or the equivalent. Sliding glass doors shall have steel window guards or be connected to an audible or silent alarm to detect entry.
(2) All direct entries into the interior storage room from the exterior of the building, including windows and skylights, require steel window guards (not recommended for private residences), or audible, silent or sonic alarm to detect entry, or 24-hour security guard service.
(3) If the dangerous weapon(s) will be stored at a location different from the principal place of business, or at the applicant's residence and that residence is rented/leased, the applicant shall submit written approval from the owner and the location shall meet all specified exterior and interior security requirements.
(4) When the size of the weapon(s) prohibits storage in a residence or room of a business, the weapon shall be permanently secured to prohibit easy removal, and the firing mechanism and any ammunition shall be removed and stored in a separate locked room, cabinet, or box in an area separate from the storage area for the weapon.
(b) Interior Building Security Requirements
(1) The weapon(s) shall be stored in a separate room away from any general living area or work area. Destructive device collectors may display historic, antique or curio weapons in a general living or work area provided such weapons have been disabled by removal of firing mechanisms which shall be stored separately in a safe or equivalent high security storage area.
(2) All doors leading into the storage room shall be solid core with a dead-bolt lock or the equivalent and be locked while unattended, or the weapon(s) shall be stored in an anchored, locked metal box in the room. Anchored is defined as permanently mounted to the floor or having a gross weight of 1,000 pounds or more so that heavy equipment or tools would be required to remove the box.
(3) Any ammunition shall be removed and stored in a separate and locked room, cabinet or box away from the storage area for the weapon. Ammunition may be stored with a weapon if locked in a safe.
(d) Security Requirements for Transporting Destructive Devices
(1) When size or quantity of the weapon(s) permits storage inside the vehicle:
(A) The weapon(s) shall be transported either concealed in the locked storage area of the vehicle, or in a locked metal box or the equivalent which is bolted to the floor of the vehicle. The vehicle shall be locked at all times while unattended.
(B) All locking devices shall be in good operating condition.
(2) When size or quantity of the weapon(s) prohibits storage inside the vehicle:
(A) If the weapon is transported exposed on a pick-up truck or other vehicle, a locking device connecting the weapon to the vehicle is required. The locking mechanism shall be able to resist common tools such as bolt cutters, hammers and cold chisels.
(B) If the weapon is transported on a trailer, the weapon shall be locked to the trailer and the trailer locked to the vehicle at all times while unattended. The locking mechanism shall be able to resist common tools such as bolt cutters, hammers and cold chisels.
(C) If the weapon is mounted on its own axle, the trailer hitch or tongue shall have a locking device connected to the vehicle at all times while unattended. The locking mechanism shall be able to resist common tools such as bolt cutters, hammers and cold chisels.
(D) If a padlock is used to secure a weapon, it shall be secured with a high security, case-hardened, large shackle padlock which is in good operating condition.
(E) A special event permit may be granted to historical societies, civic organizations or collectors requesting such permits to waive transportation security requirements for the purpose of allowing the authentic display of historic, antique, curio destructive devices in patriotic, historic, civic or cultural events.

[10.5AR]

[QUOTE](1) All perimeter doors to the building shall be solid core and have dead-bolt locks or the equivalent. Sliding glass doors shall have steel window guards or be connected to an audible or silent alarm to detect entry./QUOTE]

What would the DOJ consider perimeter doors in a four story apartment building? What about non-sliding glass doors with a solid core frame? I can make some minor modifications to the exterior of the building because I am related to the manager but its not like I am going to be able to overhaul the whole building. Thats why I am posting this on here because I want to see if I have a shot at meeting the security requirements before I decide to apply. Thank you

[SVT-40]

Did you notice this requirement?

(1) The weapon(s) shall be stored in a separate room away from any general living area or work area. Destructive device collectors may display historic, antique or curio weapons in a general living or work area provided such weapons have been disabled by removal of firing mechanisms which shall be stored separately in a safe or equivalent high security storage area.

kind of difficult in an apartment.

Modern "DD's" cannot be displayed.

Just a question what type of DD's do you desire to "collect"

[10.5AR]

Well to meet that requirement I have a spare closet that is not in the bedroom that I could put a solid core door and a deadbolt lock on. I'm assuming that it would count as a separate room away from the general living area. If that doesn't work out I also have access to a few storage areas throughout the building. I want to start with mainly 40mm and 37mm with anti-personnel rounds (no HE ammo) since they are easier to keep. I will see what I would like to add to the collection from there.

[SVT-40]

Well to meet that requirement I have a spare closet that is not in the bedroom that I could put a solid core door and a deadbolt lock on. I'm assuming that it would count as a separate room away from the general living area. If that doesn't work out I also have access to a few storage areas throughout the building. I want to start with mainly 40mm and 37mm with anti-personnel rounds (no HE ammo) since they are easier to keep. I will see what I would like to add to the collection from there.

I'm pretty sure that a "closet" would be considered as a living space since it's attached and only accessible by going through a bedroom or other living space.

Generally "closets" are not rooms.

"Storage areas throughout the building" would not be on your licensed premises, if your "premises" is an apartment and those areas would not be exclusively yours...

I'm sorry to say, but your goal does not seem to be reasonably doable considering your accommodations.

(2) All doors leading into the storage room shall be solid core with a dead-bolt lock or the equivalent and be locked while unattended, or the weapon(s) shall be stored in an anchored, locked metal box in the room. Anchored is defined as permanently mounted to the floor or having a gross weight of 1,000 pounds or more so that heavy equipment or tools would be required to remove the box.

How are you going to get a 1,000 plus pound safe into any apartment closet?

[EBR Works]

We considered doing this back in 2013. We had a number of clients that wanted a 20MM. We even had a supplier lined up.

This language killed the idea:

972.7. Collection of Destructive Devices.
(a) Documentation required to determine bona fide necessity for collecting destructive devices includes the following:
(1) A written statement from applicant certifying that he is a bona fide collector for use in a public display. The statement must include the weapons or ordinance of interest to the collector, an estimate of the intended size of the collection, and a statement that the applicant will or will not engage in sales or trading activity.

Nobody wanted to open their home as a public display.
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[10.5AR]

I'm pretty sure that it only means that you need to possess them for use in a public display, which doesn't necessarily mean that it needs to be consistently displayed and your home be open for display. There is also nothing saying that you are required to display them at least once every so often.

Check out this form from the DOJ:

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms/FD026dddact.pdf

This form is to document dates and times of display. For example say you display it at a gun show every so often. If you do decide to display you are required to maintain records on this form. It doesn't mean it will be revoked if you don't decide to display it once every so often. The form only specifies that if you DO NOT maintain records of when you displayed your DDs the permit can be revoked. The only thing that is required to maintain a DD Permit is providing a signature on this form that the DDs were not discharged.

[Quiet]

What would the DOJ consider perimeter doors in a four story apartment building?

All of the exterior doors leading into the building.

[Quiet]

I'm pretty sure that a "closet" would be considered as a living space since it's attached and only accessible by going through a bedroom or other living space.

Generally "closets" are not rooms.

"Storage areas throughout the building" would not be on your licensed premises, if your "premises" is an apartment and those areas would not be exclusively yours...
I'm sorry to say, but your goal does not seem to be reasonably doable considering your accommodations.

I concur.

As long as you live in an apartment building, you will not be able to meet the security requirements.

[P5Ret]

I have a feeling that there are only a handful of these permit's that are actually in the hands of individual's. I've only ever heard of one person that had one and he had a collection of military vehicles up to and including tanks. Given your stated living conditions, you probably have a uphill battle on your hands.