CA PFEC Information and 5150/5250 Holds

[Chewy65]

I wouldn't place too much reliance in what the anonymous person said. I assume they are accurately telling you what happened, but it could just be another example of someone not reporting things properly. Here is the definition of Committed to a mental institution.

A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term includes commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness. It also includes commitments for other reasons, such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution.

I am not certain that a 5150 hold would be considered for observation, in which it wouldn't be a commitment to a mental institution. This dovetails with my belief that while a 5150 is involuntary is done because a person is "suspected" of having a mental disorder. If she stayed beyond the three day 5150 period, and she did not voluntarily commit herself, there should have been a hearing within 4 days of her commitment.

[Textraveler]

I wouldn't place too much reliance in what the anonymous person said. I assume they are accurately telling you what happened, but it could just be another example of someone not reporting things properly. Here is the definition of Committed to a mental institution.



I am not certain that a 5150 hold would be considered for observation, in which it wouldn't be a commitment to a mental institution. This dovetails with my belief that while a 5150 is involuntary is done because a person is "suspected" of having a mental disorder. If she stayed beyond the three day 5150 period, and she did not voluntarily commit herself, there should have been a hearing within 4 days of her commitment.

It's that hearing part that gives me some hope. Mr. Davis told me that any stay past 72 hours was likely a 5250, but my girlfriend said she doesn't recall any hearings or anything of the sort, as she feels confident she'd remember something like that.

I've also been combing through previous accounts of people who were served 5250s or given hearings who later posted on this site. What I found was that a written notice of a pending 5250 hearing is always given prior to the hearing and that a hearing is always automatically scheduled if a 5250 is believed to be needed. From what I recall seeing on some CA medical page (can't recall which), this is done to keep patients from feeling too intimidated or scared to ask for a hearing and essentially giving away their rights to a doctor by way of fear of making waves.

This, combined with her complete lack of recollection about any sort of hearing other than a meeting to go over discharge procedure, is giving me hope it'll all turn out to be a big pile of nothing.

[SonofWWIIDI]

Wherever she was picked up (city/county) is the place to start to find out which hospital she was at. IIRC most agencies use the same facility (within their jurisdiction) to house peolple who may potentially harm themselves or others.

But in all honesty, I'd be concerned she is not being forthcoming with all of the information. IOW she may be keeping some pertinent information from you. I'm not really buying it that she can't remember which hospital she was at, or further details of the stay. Even if she was sedated, when she left she would have gotten PPW that detailed her stay.

I'm not saying she's lying, she might be embarrassed about it, or it might be something more serious that she doesn't want you to find out about. Don't ask me how I know about the latter.

Good luck.

[Textraveler]

Wherever she was picked up (city/county) is the place to start to find out which hospital she was at. IIRC most agencies use the same facility (within their jurisdiction) to house people who may potentially harm themselves or others.

But in all honesty, I'd be concerned she is not being forthcoming with all of the information. IOW she may be keeping some pertinent information from you. I'm not really buying it that she can't remember which hospital she was at, or further details of the stay. Even if she was sedated, when she left she would have gotten PPW that detailed her stay.

I'm not saying she's lying, she might be embarrassed about it, or it might be something more serious that she doesn't want you to find out about. Don't ask me how I know about the latter.

Good luck.

She's definitely embarrassed by it, but she does know what hospital it was. I know I worded it as if she didn't, but I was speaking in the hypothetical at that point. She called the hospital a while back and they said they needed her to submit a written records request, which she should be doing soon.

At this point things are pretty much a mixture of "fingers crossed" and me worrying myself educated about the way things are done over there, which has made it look less and less likely that this will spit out a negative outcome, but it's still possible enough to make me anxious, unfortunately.

[donkin]

PFEC does not check prohibitive mental records/holds, nor will a records review. So don't waste your time there.
https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pfecfaqs

That is not correct. You are misreading their statement.

"If you disagree with the results of the PFEC, you may request a summary of your California criminal history record by completing the Request for Live Scan Service.pdf. It is important to understand that your criminal history record will not reveal certain firearms prohibition categories, such as mental health, restraining orders, wanted persons and applicable federal prohibitions."

All they are stating is that your criminal records won't include anything about a mental health disqualification for firearms purchases. They are not saying they don't check their own mental health prohibited persons database during a PFEC. They state this to let you know that if you disagree with the PFEC results and end up running a livescan, the livescan is only going to show criminal convictions, and won't let you know if you are prohibited from owning a firearm due to a mental health disqualification.

The CA DOJ does check for mental health prohibitors during a PFEC check. They even explicitly state in the penal code they check the records of the state hospital. In addition the CA DOJ has their own database called the Mental Health Reporting System (MHRS). They also have the Armed and Prohibited Persons System (APPS) database. Both of these databases contain people prohibited from purchasing a firearm due to mental illness.

For the legal version of what a PFEC checks see the penal code below.

"Examine its records, and the records it is authorized to request from the State Department of State Hospitals pursuant to Section 8104 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, to determine if the purchaser is prohibited by state or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a firearm."

http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-30105.html

What a PFEC won't check is other state's criminal records and the NICS database. From the CA DOJ website: Please be advised that federal law does not authorize a check of the National Instant Criminal History Background Check System (NICS) as part of a Personal Firearms Eligibility Check (PFEC).

[donkin]

It's possible. I was able to get ahold of Jason Davis, who told me that if the stay past 72 hours was voluntary, a 5250 would likely not be issued (the 5250 would only be issued if the person in question refused the voluntary stay recommended by the on-site medical team.

The Welfare and Institutions code says:

If a person is detained for 72 hours under the provisions of Article 1 (commencing with Section 5150 ), or under court order for evaluation pursuant to Article 2 (commencing with Section 5200 ) or Article 3 (commencing with Section 5225 ) and has received an evaluation, he or she may be certified for not more than 14 days of intensive treatment related to the mental health disorder or impairment by chronic alcoholism, under the following conditions:

.....(c) The person has been advised of the need for, but has not been willing or able to accept, treatment on a voluntary basis....

http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/welfare-and-institutions-code/wic-sect-5250.html