Finland deaths spark gun law call

[Equalizer2]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7632661.stm

Sep 23,2008

Finland deaths spark gun law call

Finland's prime minister has called for gun laws to be tightened after a school shooting that left 11 people dead.

Matti Vanhanen said he believed handguns should no longer be used outside shooting ranges.

Matti Juhani Saari shot fellow students at a college in western Finland before turning his gun on himself.

It emerged that he had been questioned by police over a menacing video he had posted on the internet, but he had not been held and had kept his gun licence.

Valid licences

Mr Vanhanen told Finnish television: "We have to tighten the law significantly.

"In terms of handguns that can easily be carried about, we have to think about whether they should be available for private people. In my opinion, they belong on shooting ranges."


SCHOOL SHOOTINGS
Tuusula, Finland, November 2007 - nine dead, including gunman
Virginia Tech, US, April 2007 - 33 dead, including gunman
Erfurt, Germany, April 2002 - 18 dead, including gunman
Columbine school, Denver, US, April 1999 - 15 dead including two gunmen
Dunblane, Scotland, March 1996 - 16 children, one teacher and gunman dead

Tuesday's shooting echoed another in November last year in the town of Tuusula, which left eight people and the lone gunman dead.

Both gunmen had valid licences.

Although Finland said it would consider new laws after that attack, no changes have been made and 15-year-olds can still own guns.

The country has a long tradition of hunting and weapons-bearing, with about 1.6 million firearms in private hands - third in the world behind only the US and Yemen, studies say.

Mr Vanhanen said: "The question is what kind of guns should be available with a licence. After these incidents, we have to discuss whether handguns should be legal."

Questions will also be raised about the police handling of the case and the role of the internet.

Saari, 22, was questioned on Monday but police said the videos "did not threaten anyone" directly.

Mr Vanhanen said authorities would also look at whether there needed to be changes in internet monitoring.

He said: "The internet and YouTube forums... are not another planet. This is part of our world and we adults have the responsibility to check what is happening, and create borders and safety there."

Saari posted several videos, one of which showed him saying to the camera "you will die next", followed by three gun shots.

Police said they had found a note in Saari's flat explaining his actions.

The head of the police investigation, Jari Neulaniemi, said: "In the note he said he hated mankind and the human race. And that he had been planning this since 2002."

Mr Neulaniemi said nine victims were found in one classroom. Another was discovered injured in a corridor and later died in hospital.

Saari shot himself in the head. He also died in hospital.

'Constant shooting'

The attack in Kauhajoki, some 330km (205 miles) north of the capital, Helsinki, started just before 1100 local time (0800 GMT).


FINLAND'S GUN CULTURE
1.6m firearms in private hands
Only the US and Yemen have higher civilian gun ownership
All gun owners are required to have a licence
Minimum age for buying a gun is 15
About 14% of homicides in Finland are gun-related

Saari, dressed in black and wearing a ski mask, was seen entering the building with a large bag.

School caretaker Jukka Forsberg told AFP news agency that two girls had told him a man was shooting.

"I saw a guy leaving a big black bag in the corridor and going into classroom number three and closing the door," he said.

"I looked through the window and he immediately shot at me... Thank God I was not hit, he fired at me but I was running zigzag. I ran for my life."

Mr Vanhanen has declared Wednesday a day of national mourning.

[Cali80]

How about DUIs????
ban cars!!!!

[Guntech]

Right when I saw it on the news I said "**** more gun laws."

[dfletcher]

Just a pet peeve - and I think it tells us something about the folks writing the article - they certainly should not include the criminals when recounting the number of people killed. As in "15 dead including two gunmen". I think that's a not so subtle way of making everyone equal victims - the people shot had no choice in the matter, the criminals doing the shooting did have a choice.

[jcaoloveshine]

Crap, not Finland. Scandinavia is supposed to be the last bastion of free gun ownership and gun culture.

[ravenbkp]

To think the man who said that is descended from those that whipped the Russians in WW2. His grandfather should climb out of the grave and thump him good.

[bohoki]

once again a bad guy does something and they want to round up all the guns from the innocent

[Hoop]

once again a bad guy does something and they want to round up all the guns from the innocent

Don't forget they detained him beforehand and he was subsequently released.

Sounds like the laws work fine just the cops screwed up to me.

[Suvorov]

What is odd (to me at least) is that in both this shooting and the one last year (and I believe the one in Germany) as well as part of the V-Tech shooting, the weapon used was a .22LR hand gun. Now we all love to argue how a 9mm is only good for wounding and discount the .22LR as too small to even harm a mouse, but they seem to be terribly effective in the hands of these mad men. So how is that? Are the victims cowering and allowing themselves to be killed execution style? Is the low recoil of the pistol allowing for easy head shots? I'm not attempting to Monday morning QB the victims here, I'm just wondering how these .22LR pistols are so effective given the fact that cops in the US can put 10 .40 cal bullets in a perp and barely drop him?

[formerTexan]

The "cool" thing about Finland is that using suppressors is considered "polite" and "healthy". Polite in that you're trying to minimize disturbing people around you, and healthy in that you're protecting your ears. Suppressors are not too hard to get in Finland.

[RomanDad]

What is odd (to me at least) is that in both this shooting and the one last year (and I believe the one in Germany) as well as part of the V-Tech shooting, the weapon used was a .22LR hand gun. Now we all love to argue how a 9mm is only good for wounding and discount the .22LR as too small to even harm a mouse, but they seem to be terribly effective in the hands of these mad men. So how is that? Are the victims cowering and allowing themselves to be killed execution style? Is the low recoil of the pistol allowing for easy head shots? I'm not attempting to Monday morning QB the victims here, I'm just wondering how these .22LR pistols are so effective given the fact that cops in the US can put 10 .40 cal bullets in a perp and barely drop him?

.22s kill more people than any other round.... Most of the "bigger is better" thing is purely theoretical... In reality, its just best to not get shot.... If a bullet of any caliber hits a major blood vessel or vital organ, you're in a life and death struggle with the clock....



I suspect that the reason this guy was so deadly is that he had full reign of the building for over an hour... So its safe to bet his victims didnt get medical attention right away... In that amount of time, it doesnt matter what you're shot with or where it hits you... There's a good chance you're going to bleed to death....

[rrr70]

How about DUIs????
ban cars!!!!

Actualy Finland used to have (not sure, maybe still have) very strict alcohol laws. Finns used to go across the border to Russia to get wasted.


Good idea on banning cars. Also knives. And we shouldn't build buildings over three feet tall.

Give government a retarded idea, and if it retarded enough government will run with it.

[SJgunguy24]

What is odd (to me at least) is that in both this shooting and the one last year (and I believe the one in Germany) as well as part of the V-Tech shooting, the weapon used was a .22LR hand gun. Now we all love to argue how a 9mm is only good for wounding and discount the .22LR as too small to even harm a mouse, but they seem to be terribly effective in the hands of these mad men. So how is that? Are the victims cowering and allowing themselves to be killed execution style? Is the low recoil of the pistol allowing for easy head shots? I'm not attempting to Monday morning QB the victims here, I'm just wondering how these .22LR pistols are so effective given the fact that cops in the US can put 10 .40 cal bullets in a perp and barely drop him?

That has been noted. New law proposal. Nothing smaller than an M82 Barrett and a 20 rd mag. Oh wait.........those have been used in countless gang land murders and of course school shootings.

[Citizen Snips]

While I feel terrible for the innocent lives lost, this seems like another biased article from the BBC...

For them I have this quote:

...when the media and public know little about an item, such as Webley-Fosberry revolvers, self-loading firearms, or marijuana, it is easy for reporters to talk themselves and their audience into a panic.

@Suvorov, the VT shooter was also armed with a Glock 19 IIRC. Forgive me if there have been any articles about whether he used the Glock or Walther the majority of the time, but I thought I should bring that up. Now aside from that, the thing about gunshot wounds and wounds in general as far as survivability goes, there are many factors that go into it. While there is the most obvious physical factor, the mental aspect is just about as important. While the worst people in the world that officers deal with on a daily basis are coked up 20-something hotheads with nothing to lose, the kids at the colleges were likely lanky intellectuals just living on ramen and pizza to get through. Having never been confronted by this kind of evil, it was not in their reality to expect such an occurrence. One minute they're crunching numbers, wondering what the name of that chick wearing the "look at my a**" jeans in the cafeteria's was, the next they're at the wrong end of a firearm operated by a lunatic with not a policeman in sight. These are completely different mindsets, and it goes along with the general notion that more experienced soldiers, despite less physical capability, have the mental tools that make them more likely to survive certain events than the younger, stronger, and faster.

With that said, a student or teacher observing concealed carry likely would have ended this a lot sooner so I hope they do not concede to the militant progressive movement.

[SJgunguy24]

While I feel terrible for the innocent lives lost, this seems like another biased article from the BBC...

For them I have this quote:



@Suvorov, the VT shooter was also armed with a Glock 19 IIRC. Forgive me if there have been any articles about whether he used the Glock or Walther the majority of the time, but I thought I should bring that up. Now aside from that, the thing about gunshot wounds and wounds in general as far as survivability goes, there are many factors that go into it. While there is the most obvious physical factor, the mental aspect is just about as important. While the worst people in the world that officers deal with on a daily basis are coked up 20-something hotheads with nothing to lose, the kids at the colleges were likely lanky intellectuals just living on ramen and pizza to get through. Having never been confronted by this kind of evil, it was not in their reality to expect such an occurrence. One minute they're crunching numbers, wondering what the name of that chick wearing the "look at my a**" jeans in the cafeteria's was, the next they're at the wrong end of a firearm operated by a lunatic with not a policeman in sight. These are completely different mindsets, and it goes along with the general notion that more experienced soldiers, despite less physical capability, have the mental tools that make them more likely to survive certain events than the younger, stronger, and faster.

With that said, a student or teacher observing concealed carry likely would have ended this a lot sooner so I hope they do not concede to the militant progressive movement.

Too many people walk around in condition white. They are prey,they are victims,they need to remove their heads from the warm safe place. They are also the same people who look down on all of us for owning guns. I don't know how these people grew up or where they grew up. I didn't grow up in the best area or with the best people. Condition yellow is my mind set. I don't cliam to be Billy bad *** but i'm ready to rock any time any place. I refuse to be a victim. Been like that since 7th grade.

Don't fold when it's time to fight. It's amazing what can be turned into a weapon if need be. 33 kids a Va tech. all those books, chairs,flag poles,pens all kinds of good stuff. Progressives want to feel good. I want to feel safe,and I can only trust 1 person with me or my familys safety. That would be me.