Modern Short Barreled Rifles and Shotguns

[NeoWeird]

As I've mentioned before I get lots of time at work to litterly zone out and think about whatever I want and it usually leads to firearms and other related categories. In any event, I had a small thought today that I can't seem to argue myself out of and that is a way to get legal modern SBRs and SBSs in California.

Now I will assume that anyone looking into this seriously will already know about C&Rs and will cut to the point and quote the law for ease of reference:

ARTICLE 2. UNLAWFUL CARRYING AND POSSESSION OF WEAPONS
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag.

...

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:

...

(7) Any firearm or ammunition that is a curio or relic as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the items pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto. Any person prohibited by Section 12021, 12021.1, or 12101 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code from possessing firearms or ammunition who obtains title to these items by bequest or intestate succession may retain title for not more than one year, but actual possession of these items at any time is punishable pursuant to Section 12021, 12021.1, or 12101 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code. Within the year, the person shall transfer title to the firearms or ammunition by sale, gift, or other disposition. Any person who violates this paragraph is in violation of subdivision (a).

(8) Any other weapon as defined in subsection (e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the weapons pursuant to the federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto. Any person prohibited by Section 12021, 12021.1, or 12101 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code from possessing these weapons who obtains title to these weapons by bequest or intestate succession may retain title for not more than one year, but actual possession of these weapons at any time is punishable pursuant to Section 12021, 12021.1, or 12101 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code. Within the year, the person shall transfer title to the weapons by sale, gift, or other disposition. Any person who violates this paragraph is in violation of subdivision (a). The exemption provided in this subdivision does not apply to pen guns.

Ok, so those are the sections that deal with SBRs and SBSs in California. So we can have SBRs and SBSs as long as they are registered as per the NFA AND a C&R and we can have ANY AOW again as long as it's registered as per the NFA.

Well if I read that right it says that AOWs are exempt from subdivion (a).

So if I purchased a 2008 Remington 870 that has a factory pistol only grip and registered it as a AOW then it suddenly is exempt from subdivions (a) which outlines which SBSs we can not have. So then I re-register it with the ATF as a SBS. It's now a legally owned and registered SBS Remington 870. This can be done with any firearm, as long as our AW laws are followed, of course.

So you could transfer an AR-15 pistol, register it as an AOW, then register it as a SBR. Yes, it would still require a fixed 10 or less mag and an overall length of 30+ inches, but you could legally throw on a 7" pistol upper out of state whenever you wanted. You could also throw on a fized full length stock and cut the barrel down quite a bit. Or throw in a rimfire unit and have a LOT of fun.

Is this poor writing on their part and legally sound, or am I too high in the clouds to see straight?

[PRODRIVE]

how about registered AW and turn it to SBR?

[ke6guj]

Neo, this got brought up in the AOW/SBS/SBR thread a couple weeks ago and I asked my NFA insider about this, and this is what he said.

I've got another NFA question that came up that I hope you may be able to answer.

If someone were to take a "cruiser" type PG shotgun and register it as an AOW, and then later re-register it as an SBS so they could put a stock on it, what happens to the original AOW registration? Does ATF cancel the AOW registration, when the SBS is approved? Or does the firearm have two registration types associated with it, even though the AOW registration is functionally useless?


I assume that most people wouldn't care, but there is an exemption to some CA laws if the firearm is a registered AOW.

Thanks, Jack
--------------
Hi Jack,

Short answer is "No", it can not be dual registered. The SBS trumps, if you will, the AOW status. Once an SBS, with a shoulder stock, it then can not become and AOW again - or stay an AOW.

If you manufactured the AOW, you would have to engrave your name, city/state, and use the serial number - as the "manufacturer".

If you then wanted to then register it as a SBS, you would be the manufacturer, and would have to add a new serial number, or alter the existing by adding another alphanumeric character - as the same manufacturer can not duplicate serial numbers.

If you purchased it as an AOW, so it was already marked by another MFG, you could then use the same serial number as the "manufacturer" of the SBS - but this would still eliminate the AOW registration.

Hope that helps a bit.

Dan.

It was a nice idea, but it doesn't look like it would work. Looks like if we want a stock, its gotta be C&R or one of those combo guns.

[ke6guj]

how about registered AW and turn it to SBR?

Only if it is C&R. SBRs are only exempt from needing a CA permit if they are C&R.

[PRODRIVE]

Only if it is C&R. SBRs are only exempt from needing a CA permit if they are C&R.

i guess m1 carbine will do..

[ke6guj]

i guess m1 carbine will do..

still have to keep it over 30" OAL, unless you registered it as an AW.

A couple guys were saying that you could get down to like a 10-12" barrel with a regular stock and still be 30", so you didn't trigger AW status, but I never heard anymore about it.

[PRODRIVE]

still have to keep it over 30" OAL, unless you registered it as an AW.

A couple guys were saying that you could get down to like a 10-12" barrel with a regular stock and still be 30", so you didn't trigger AW status, but I never heard anymore about it.

so if i get 870,i could turn into AOW and or SBS?
SBS must be c&r?
AOW must be pistol grip from factory?
i am little bit

[NeoWeird]

Neo, this got brought up in the AOW/SBS/SBR thread a couple weeks ago and I asked my NFA insider about this, and this is what he said.


It was a nice idea, but it doesn't look like it would work. Looks like if we want a stock, its gotta be C&R or one of those combo guns.

That's the idea though. The AOW is a gateway registration to exempt it from subdivions (a). Once an AOW it is no longer regulated and can then be registered as a SBS. The new registration, in your used words, would trump the AOW but it would still be registered as an AOW with the ATF and would still be exempt on the state level, the firearm would simply follow SBS rules about it's configuration, which are far more lax than that of the AOW class.

It would be on par with handguns turned rifle and then back to handguns. They can go either way, but once a stock is placed on it it must follow rifle rules. In this case it would always follow SBS rules even though it was also registered as an AOW.

He even states that it could be done with another manufacturer's AOW but you'd have to mark it again. So we are the manufacturer and we add an extra letter/number to the end of the serial. Big deal.

The biggest question so far is to ask the ATF if registering an AOW as a SBR/SBS removes it from the database of AOW registered items. If it doesn't, then that's a moot point. I don't see why they would go through the extra hassle of removing it when the whole purpose is to keep track of who has what and not to regulate it in the strictest of fashions.

[ke6guj]

I saw that too, so I then asked:

Oh, I saw something in your answer...

If I manufactured the AOW and then were to then register it as an SBS and added a second serial number instead of altering the existing number, there would still be an AOW registration on hand with the original number. Even though it is a useless registration federally, is it still vailid? Or does once the stock is attached, the AOW reg is automatically VOIDed per configuration?

This is what we are trying to work with



But it sounds like even though there may be an AOW registration, it no longer fits the definition of an AOW, so 12020(b)(8) would not be a valid exemption to CA's SBS law.

Thanks, Jack

He hasn't responded, but I think we are outta luck. Here lies the problem, "Any other weapon as defined in subsection (e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the weapons ". Once we put a stock on that AOW, it no longer meets the definition of an AOW, so 12020(b)(8) doesn't exempt us any longer.

[NeoWeird]

I saw that too, so I then asked:



He hasn't responded, but I think we are outta luck. Here lies the problem, "Any other weapon as defined in subsection (e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the weapons ". Once we put a stock on that AOW, it no longer meets the definition of an AOW, so 12020(b)(8) doesn't exempt us any longer.

True, but we are not trying to get it to fall into the category of AOW. Subsection (a) simply states that you can not posesse a SBR/SBS except those that fall into the categories of...

If it the receiver falls into category (8) AOW than it is no longer a restricted item and that could possibly open a new door. I didn't catch whether or not it was figured out if an AOW could legally have a barrel less than 16" without being a SBS also. From what i remember California has it's own laws that prevent shotgun AOWs from having barrels under 18". This could be a way around that.

I understand EXACTLY what you are saying, but at the same time, and I think you agree, there IS something there we just need to figure out how to use it to our benifit. I've read that code several times and just dismissed it. Not sure why I got the hair up my butt to look into it further, but I am.

[ke6guj]

True, but we are not trying to get it to fall into the category of AOW. Subsection (a) simply states that you can not posesse a SBR/SBS except those that fall into the categories of...

but if it doesnt' fit in the federal AOW catagory, I don't think that you truly meet the 12020(b)(8) exemption. You'd have to argue the case and that is too close to the edge for me right now.

If it the receiver falls into category (8) AOW than it is no longer a restricted item and that could possibly open a new door. I didn't catch whether or not it was figured out if an AOW could legally have a barrel less than 16" without being a SBS also. From what i remember California has it's own laws that prevent shotgun AOWs from having barrels under 18". This could be a way around that.

A true AOW is exempt from all barrel length restrictions. Basically no matter what part of 12020 the firearm falls under, 12020(b)(8) would exempt one from it. SO, that Super-shorty clone would fall under the CA SBS and unconventional pistol (smooth-bore pistol) definitions, but as a federally defined and registered AOW, it is exempt from 12020. Remember, this is only a 12020 exemption, all other sections of the code still apply.

I understand EXACTLY what you are saying, but at the same time, and I think you agree, there IS something there we just need to figure out how to use it to our benifit. I've read that code several times and just dismissed it. Not sure why I got the hair up my butt to look into it further, but I am.

I understand where you are coming from. I've said it before, the code is there for the reading. Read it, re-read it , re-re-read it again and you may find something that nobody ever saw before.

[ke6guj]

so if i get 870,i could turn into AOW and or SBS?
SBS must be c&r?

CA says that C&R SBSs are exempt from 12020.

AOW must be pistol grip from factory?

Correct, federally a PGO shotgun is not a shotgun (must be shoulder-fired to be a shotgun), but is just a firearm. As such, if the barrel is shortened to less than 18", it becomes an unconventional (smooth-bore) pistol, and that is an Any other Weapon. But if you later put a stock on it, it becomes a SBS, which would be illegal, unless you reregistered it as an SBS. And at that point, it would not be CA-legal since only C&R SBS/SBR are 12020 exempt, unless the AOW registration were to somehow still be valid to maintain 12020 exemption.