Stag leaving CT!

[Marxman]

But collectively, millions of gun owners in a state contribute far more money in income, sales, property, and gasoline tax than any company.

I hate to say this, but companies leaving to protect their bottom line or keep their business open is much more likely than a mass exodus of gun owners from any one state. Look at the draconian gun laws that new York is passing and the tyrant of New York City. While there are gun owners leaving the state it is still nowhere near one hundred thousand - let alone one million. This is hitherto the worst law to come down the pike in recent memory at the state level and we still don't see massive reaction or bulk flow of citizens away from the restricting state.

I'd wager that if 49 states passed the same laws we'd have a significant influx of people to the last remaining state - and then we may approach the one million or even break it - but truth be told that's from 49 states and the individual emigration counts on each of the states probably wouldn't be very significant.

Unless we had a concerted effort to band together hunters, target shooters, hobbyists, active and retired LEO, reservists, and active duty or veteran military members without mention of the retired gun owners who moved here due to climate and other factors or others with familial ties in state and got them to agree that moving out is the best option we'd hardly make a difference. For every person moving to Oregon, Washington, Utah, Arizona, Oklahoma, or Texas there's many more who will not leave for one reason or another.

Putting aside the seeming impossibility of a mass movement of people from any one state note also that many people don't hold the RKBA as their first priority. Even on this board there are those who aren't "single issue voters" or who vote with different interests in mind. That being said it stands to reason that there are those among us who are not entirely interested in the RKBA enough to change their lifestyle. Many people do not like change. Many people would rather live in a restrictive state with family, friends, and an established way of life than leave for the unknown.

I hate to say it but I honestly believe that a lack of cohesion among the many groups that enjoy their Second Amendment rights along with the complacency some groups have shown with the restrictive laws being passed every year would hamstring any attempted mass movement of people out of a state. Even with a slow trickle of people out of a state they could care less due to immigration for other reasons. Every gunny who leaves is likely replaced several times over by people who probably don't share the same respect for the RKBA.

While you are right that as a group we can do significant damage I surmise that it is extremely unlikely that we would be able to get together to harm the state in the ways you enumerate.

And what do you have to show for all your efforts?

Not a lot, unfortunately. In my short time I've probably talked to about 130+ people about the issue, more like 300+ if you count presentations at my school for political science and speech. The response has been fairly positive and if anything it's more informative than anything. Even some of the rabid anti-gunner's I've spoken with have walked away to probably never use the term "assault rifles" or "assault weapons" again because their incorrect usage of terms was revealed and their argument given a trouncing - politely I might add. Every one that walked off mad or resorted to personal attacks simply looked foolish and I'd like to think conceded in front of whatever audience I may have had.

I know many people who have at lest some inkling of laws on the books already who believe they're ridiculous who don't shoot that I've spoken to. I've garnered an interest in shooting with several friends - one of which is looking to purchase their first rifle soon. Even in casual conversation with people during the day I've met several other groups - paintballers, airsofters, and some hunters who could care less about banning a Modern Sporting Rifle until I explained how we were all in the fight together and that if we fell they were on deck.

To summarize I don't have a lot to show. I moved into a city about 3 years ago to go to school and the vast majority of my experiences have come in this period. Am I disappointed with the scope of my actions? Not really. Will i keep at it? You bet. All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

So how successful has all that "entrenching and fighting" been in California over the past 20 years? By the end of this year, with all the new gun control proposals, will you have more gun rights, or less than you did one year ago? Five years ago?

I'm young. I was born at a time where if I showed an officer my standard capacity magazine from before the first AWB he'd laugh at me and ask why a toddler would have purchased a magazine. I grew up post NFA 1934, GCA 1968, and wasn't even in school until after AWB 1994. I grew up with restrictive laws that even as a child I knew did nothing to stop bad people. In the past 12 years I've seen more progress than I thought I could possibly hope to see. Even with the bills that get through landmark cases and expert argumentation are still holding back the tide of gun control. We're making them accountable for their slander and exposing their ignorance at every turn. You may not think it makes any difference with the mass media but I think it does. When you can explain your position with facts, logic, and examples as well as court decisions it's much easier to shoot down "common sense" gun laws with the public.

Will we lose out this year? Quite possibly. Do we have more freedom than 20 years ago? Not to my knowledge. 5 years ago? Probably not. Will we lose out again? Probably. Will these lost battles make us lose the war? No. The advances we've fought for are worthy. The incorporation of the Second Amendment through DC v. Heller and the entirety of Chicago v. McDonald has had such dramatic impact that it continues to render arguments from the other side invalid on a daily basis. With more cases headed to SCOTUS and running to the circuit courts, the rise of several pro-RKBA politicians, and law enforcement officials taking stands against restrictive laws I wager that the people who entrench and fight have been doing fairly well. Note that Heller was extremely far behind enemy lines as was McDonald. If they had not dug in and fought we would not have any of the advances they have brought to the cause.

Even if California hasn't had a landmark decision to further the RKBA if anything our continued harassment of the legislature and court challenges slows the pace at which they can churn out anti-gun legislation and/or set precedent for state-wide anti-gun laws. Every letter, fax, email, or phone call may seem insignificant but consistently calling the opposing side on their lies and tying them up by making them explain or try to garner support for their ideas is better than remaining silent and letting them ram it through unopposed. We may feel like they simply run it through without any difficulty and that nobody will help us already but we've shown before that a concerted effort on our part can make a difference.

I think entrenching and fighting as an individual makes sense. You're completely entitled to your opinion as well and you have valid points. This long response is just an exploration of my reasoning and feeling on the issue. It may be youthful optimism or ignorance but I will continue fighting because if we turn field and run the worst case scenario today will become the best case scenario tomorrow - and tomorrow's worst case scenario will become reality unopposed. To reiterate, in the words of Edmund Burke "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

[Marxman]

http://www.ibabuzz.com/politics/2013...t-gun-control/

In my reply the quote missed this. To address this look at how the question is framed - poll manipulation is a science. This is a framed poll designed to manipulate response toward the anti-gun side. When you frame the argument you own the argument. Look at the terms they sue for the field poll and other results.

These are not aimed at you Milsurp - rather they're my take on the polling questions from someone who isn't a gunny.

Surely you support increasing penalties for people who break the laws with guns! They wont do it if the penalties are high enough, right? Just like they wont murder someone if they get sent to prison for life!

Of course you support keeping a database of anyone that owns a gun, right? It's just like keeping a database of people who buy Cough Syrup because they can make meth! Something bad might happen and you know you don't do those type of things - why on Earth would it affect you

Clearly you want to improve background checks by increasing the efficiency and number of mental health records submitted for processing! Crazy people shouldn't have guns! Of course they wont label anyone with a prescription for Xanex or minor-anxiety as a nutcase and restrict their rights to whatever extent they want! They're the government! Why would they do that?!

When they frame it they own it. They feign bipartisanship by saying Republicans and Democrats. Anti-gunners are not restricted to a single party. Even if you passed this to gun owners the way it's worded would cause dissension due to perception and image. You don't want to be the gun-toting babykiller - do you? They know how to manipulate people and they do it with devastating efficiency - but I'd go to say that if we reworded the questions with pro-2A wording such as "Do you support the rights of the people enumerated in the Bill of Rights to keep and bear arms or do you support restricting the personal freedoms granted by the Bill of Rights" you'd have a different response. An extreme reword - I know - but they can be done with subtlety and have the same effect. On its face I would only use this poll if I were on the other side - and it would be shot down faster than a North Korean jet flying across the DMZ.

[oldtwoar]

I'd support them by buying a Stag AR or upper/lower, things I'm actively in the market for, but at the moment I doubt I'd find any in stock anywhere.

Have to eat my words. Stopped by LGS this afternoon and they had several Stag uppers in stock. Walked out with their last in stock 1H complete upper. Their price wasn't great but it was exactly what I was looking for and I got to examine it in detail first so it was worth a slight premium to me.