80% legal questions - Not the basic kind Milling to m16 spec without 3rd hole

[10Rounder]

1) I do know milling an 80% paperweight into a ar15 lower is perfectly legal to do as long as I do the work myself.

Now here is the premise to my question:

I tried to have my 80% engraved with selector switch section where "Auto" would be with "herd" IE i was going with a zombie theme and safe was to be "Human" Semi was to be "Walker" and Auto (I do not own a auto sear nor plan to ever get one) was to be marked "Herd"

This was to be an homage to "The walking dead"

My Questions:

1) The engraver said having anything in the Auto section would be illegal to have and that he could not do it. How true is this? He said any lower with the engraving is illegal and the engraving on any lower with that section marked should be milled out to remove it. I dont think this is true as I have seen many lowers including a few spikes lowers that have "SHTF" on that side. My ZEDU lower also has "Outbreak" on that section.

2) I was given the option of milling out my lower to the internal dimensions of an m16 minus the 3rd hole for the sear. I do not plan on getting an auto sear nor do I think law will ever change to allow us to own one but I want to get it done because I like the "authentic" cut look though it serves absolutely no purpose. (Like getting blinged out rims on a car) I can't fine any definitive answer other than opinions and interpretations of the law. Can someone help me with this? If we can avoid the speculations and go straight to some cold hard facts, I think that this might help serve to better educate other fellow owners who may be asking the same questions.

Yes better to be on the side of safe and most likely I will get responses saying "Don't do it" but citing law would help me be a better educated Firearms owner and appreciate all the help from this website.

From what I read ATF in the case of US vs Smith said that if one was able to create a fully automatic rifle within 8 hours, then it was "readily convertible" therefore thickened the walls of the ar15. I also read that Mark Serbu to debunk this, created a smg under 8 hours from a block of metal. I can find NO reference of either one.

Note: I do not own a full auto bolt carrier, I do not own a sear, I do not own a full auto selector.

(This is a tag for google search purposes)
Is having a full auto cut 80% lower legal?
Is having an 80% lower milled to m16 specs legal?
Can I mill an 80% lower with m16 specs?

Thanks all. I know this might be taboo but would like to get the correct information out there.

[smogcity]

Your post makes our collective heads hurt.

As expected, "don't do it". If you need law advice for your anti zombi, 11 post count, looks like select fire, home built AR...Pay a laywer.

[phrogg111]

Engraving in the auto section of the selector is done all the time. It is not illegal, and some guns come with auto on them.

Cutting the 3rd hole for auto is illegal.

What's the difference between mil-spec and civi spec besides he 3rd hole?

Edit: Oh yeah - google search for ATF letters, not law.

[10Rounder]

if someone has a hold of an ATF letter that would be much help. Thank you all. I keep reading

"Until you drill a hole in the side of your receiver, you dont have a machine gun. There is the whole constructive intent thing, but even the atf says in numerous letters that unless it makes it fire full auto there isnt an issue. Just putting in the hammer, disconnector, bcg, selector wont make it go full auto."

[10Rounder]

Your post makes our collective heads hurt.

As expected, "don't do it". If you need law advice for your anti zombi, 11 post count, looks like select fire, home built AR...Pay a laywer.

The whole reason I'm on here is to find more information so that I can be a better informed individual. If it's enough trouble to go get a lawyer, I'll pass. I'm not trying to start anything, I'm asking questions. Isn't this why this community is available? Should I not? Am I under the wrong section? I want to know whats legal for me to do so I don't end up needing a lawyer.

I'm sorry if i've somewhat offended you but I'm just trying to find answers.

13 posts now.

[CBruce]

Is having an 80% lower milled to m16 specs legal?

Pretty sure you it is definitely not legal. I believe the ATF regulations specify that a semi-auto firearm cannot be built in a way that it can be 'easily' converted to full auto. For AR-15 receivers, this includes making the fire control pocket too small to accomodate an auto-sear. Milling out the pocket so that an auto-sear could be installed is probably enough to get you into trouble by itself, much less drilling the hole.

However, there's nothing illegal about an M16 style bolt carrier. I have one in mine. Also have M4 style feed ramps and cuts on my barrel and upper receiver. These help a semi-auto function and feed ammuntion more reliably (certainly can't hurt) and were nominally more expensive/difficult to find.

I think it's the M-16 fire control elements that will get you in trouble. Particularly the auto-sear, which is regulated as a "machinegun" itself.

As for engraving on your receiver. As long as you'r not mimicing the rollmarks or models of things banned by name, should be free to put whatever you want on there.

[MattyB]

Mil spec would have the non selector side of the FCG pocket milled to mirror the other side in order to physically fit the auto sear.


Yes its legal without the auto sear hole

[10Rounder]

Are there any ATF letters that I can provide the engraver?

[Tiberius]

First, I have no idea. But I can't believe engraving on the outside of the gun would make it illegal. Changing around the internals could be a different story. Maybe adding that proverbial "third hole." (Are we still talking about guns?)

I pretty sure I can paint "I am a machine gun" on a bolt .22 and it won't make it illegal.

Also, I've seen lowers with engraving along the lines of what you suggest in the "auto spot." Proabably your engraver is being extra cautious, or is concerned that you might go all the way and do the internals as well, and then he's an accessory.

[Tripper]

tell him you want to have RAYGUN engraved on it, does that make it illegal too

also, tell him practicing law without a license is against the law

or, simply have him show you where it says that

[hermosabeach]

Maybe I should MYOB....

Many people think that guns are serious - part of our rights as a human to defend ourselves.

Punisher logos- herds of zombies in the forward position- mall ninja stuff is avoided


If you want something legal and the shop does not want to participate and refuses to be educated- move on to a new supplier

Some shops won't sell black rifles
Some gunshows have banned AR

Move on and find a supporter of the cause

[10Rounder]

I've been searching through ATF letters and I'm getting mixed answers. A few gun store owners tell me its ok, that they see other manufactures who have m16milspec cut without the 3rd hole, i heard plumb crazy is also molded like that.

[glbtrottr]

1) herd is legal. Whatever.
2) drilling of the 3rd hole massively bad no no no.
3) redimensioning the interior base fire control shelf to accommodate an m16a1 auto sear that costs 16 bucks is massively illegal too. The 100 dollar m16 lower parts kit is hugely illegal, and both the inappropriately Milled out receiver as well as the fire control group parts constitute possession of an assault weapon as well as intent to manufacture. Don't do it. Both are NFA item violations
4) possession of an m16 bolt carrier group has been historically very legal based on a findings letter distributed by ATF. With that said...

...the recent Nguyen case screws all of us. This felon showed off his AK manufacturing to the cops who pinched him and convicted him for INTENT to manufacture an assault weapon though he was not in possession of full auto FCG. The appeal was lost, and the meaning is that if you have the parts to assemble an assault weapon (and all of us do simply by omitting a bullet button), every one of us runs the risk now of being pinched for intent to manufacture an assault weapon, no matter how neutered your featureless build is.

For all of you happy naysayers and head shakers, let me part with this: attorneys in our Calguns family have recently met with 3 letter LE organizations whose keen interest on m16 bcg's was overtly apparent, independent of a letter from ATF's own organization.

Constructive possession has arrived along with intent to manufacture. These are not the yesteryears. You'd have to be an ostrich and not consider political climate as it stands today. Until a split develops and goes in our favor, the bad Nguyen case stands...

[10Rounder]

Maybe I should MYOB....

Many people think that guns are serious - part of our rights as a human to defend ourselves.

Punisher logos- herds of zombies in the forward position- mall ninja stuff is avoided


If you want something legal and the shop does not want to participate and refuses to be educated- move on to a new supplier

Some shops won't sell black rifles
Some gunshows have banned AR

Move on and find a supporter of the cause

I have no issue with the engraver denying work. And I agree, it's his shop and if he doesn't want to do something I'm not going to push him to do anything. I respected his wishes and was very courteous with him.

[big ron]

look at the inside of the polymer lowers