Selling 80% lowers as a non-firearms business....risks?

[Onlyincali]

What are the legalities of a NON-FIREARMS business making and selling 80% lowers?

Given the short supply of them, it seems like a machinist with a good cnc machine may find financial benefit from making and selling 80% lowers, and it would also help the firearm community if sold at a reasonable price. Given that, what would you tell an older machinist what was nervous of doing such a thing for profit?

1. IE: Ok to make and sell the 80% lowers as a construction company, machinist company, etc. since its NOT a firearm?

It seems like this would be a win-win for the guy machining these and for the gun-community but I wouldn't want to lead a guy into something that would get him in legal trouble.....

[Sir Stunna Lot]

i "think" its a great idea if someone has the means to make them

[Socalmp5]

I believe you have to get an approval letter from ATF which may take a few years (so I've heard). Even if they classify it as a paper weight.

[peacedivision]

As far as I know, to do it right you need a determination letter from the ATF stating that what you are making is not a firearm.

I am not a lawyer.

[El Toro]

Perhaps become a sub for someone with the letter. Im sure there are a bunch who wish they had excess manufacturing capacity. Worst case is you would need to be a business entity together with them. Dont know if the ATF letter is specific about who what and where the letter holder makes their paperweights. IANAL but worth talking to someone like quentin, jdm, etc.

[glbtrottr]

There are a few firearms outthere that are common and widespread enough where functionally they are the same as other letters. For instance, nothing would preclude you from building a Quentin or a TM or a Colfax or a Yellow Logic AR15 80%, as the letters for approval and the cuts they use are the same.

That said, my personal belief, having discussed this exact talk track with ...umm....7 or 8 people from ATF locally and at Firearms Technology Branch in the last 4 days, that regardless of what is written and usual and customary, they're taking their job a little more seriously than usual and are looking for examples.

I would get my own letter for each and every firearm I design, sent by my trusty neighborhood firearms or Calguns attorney.

The more insidious and unamerican issue revolves not around the concept of making a shiny paperweight or selling it; even if you have a paperweight with an ATF letter that says it isn't a firearm per Title 18 USC s 921, you're still not in the clear. Aside from Eric Holder's ATF and the jackbooted thugs who work there, you still have to concern yourself with DOJ in various levels. The specific code section they will look at (read my crystal ball) is the MANUFACTURE of a FIREARM as described which is READILY CONVERTIBLE to accept and fire a projectile.

In the case of USA vs 1911 against KTO, they stalked him for 3 years, bought frames from him, and then deemed that he was manufacturing firearms (not 80%'s) by buying his frames, having them delivered to a shill, having the FBI take them to ATF, having the special agent complete the drilling or milling operations, and then calling it a firearm.

Pay very close attention here...

ATF bought and 80% (as determined by their criteria, albeit without a letter), completed the drilling or milling operations manufacturing a firearm in the comfort of their own Martinsburg office, and then raided KTO for manufacturing the firearm based on Title 18USCs 921.

Huh?

At some point after a raid, asset seizure, and much more, they dropped the case because of the vague definition of "readily convertible", as is my understanding; it didn't prevent them from taking action against KTO. Richard states he didn't build frames for a year and a half.

In other words, get a letter. Not having one ensures you will spend money on legal fees defending against agents who "swore to uphold and defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic". The downside is that legally they get to determine who the enemy is, even if they are the ones usurping the second amendment and are too hypocritical while receiving a paycheck to feed their bellies to check their integrity when they strap on that badge.

On another note, a discussion with a local ATF swat agent revealed an opinion where he is SURE that for you to manufacture your very own 80% into a 100% as an unlicensed individual requires a license from ATF. When referred to his own page ( http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/fire...echnology.html ), the specific relevant language follows:

"For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution."

Two little items of notice here:

One, you're not required to be licensed; but two, the determination of who is doing the manufacturing if you rent my drill press (or other device) is still not readily defined and a test case hasn't been applied.

This is where I believe the Calguns foundation needs to be heavily involved and with great import...soon.

[Nick1236]

Bringing this thread back as I am extremely interested in machining 80% lowers and selling them. Where would I have to send my paper wieght for approval and how long does it take to get approval? Has anyone actually confirmed it takes 2 years? I can have these made and available for purchase in about 6-9 weeks pending an approval letter.

[mud99]

From what I understand, it's a bit of a catch-22 - you can go and sell 80% lowers all day long, but unless you are an FFL, you can't get an opinion letter from the ATF that states that they are NOT firearms.

So in order to sell non-FFL items without worry, you need an FFL. Otherwise you just roll the dice and hope you don't end up in jail.

[Nick1236]

From what I understand, it's a bit of a catch-22 - you can go and sell 80% lowers all day long, but unless you are an FFL, you can't get an opinion letter from the ATF that states that they are NOT firearms.

So in order to sell non-FFL items without worry, you need an FFL. Otherwise you just roll the dice and hope you don't end up in jail.

Well thats no good... I dont have an FFL obviously. So is there no way for me to get my lowers "bought off" by the ATF? I have read several threads on here with links to letters and pictures of lowers and I'm 99.99% certain mine will fall into the acceptable category. I just dont wanna take the risk of having the black party van pull up at my door.

Or I could go ahead and make them and hope the CGF represents me for free if something happens.

[9M62]

One, you're not required to be licensed; but two, the determination of who is doing the manufacturing if you rent my drill press (or other device) is still not readily defined and a test case hasn't been applied.

This is where I believe the Calguns foundation needs to be heavily involved and with great import...soon.

This, too, is my concern with 80%'s. If I have my own CNC and do it myself, okay so be it. Simple, I think it fits and you're okay.

However, if I pay you to use your machine.... the argument could be made that while you didn't "press start" or physically do the work of machining, you did profit of the use of your machine and the fact that it manufactured the 80% into a firearm. Thus, finding the CNC owner in violation and possibly the person who owned the 80% in violation of not doing a correct transfer of a firearm.

I dunno, I'm no lawyer, and I know it's been done a million times and is all good and well to most people... but I'm just weary because I don't want to become the example that determines whether or not using someone elses CNC machine / them making a profit of me building a firearm is some kind of crime.

More importantly, I don't want to rely on 12 people who werent able to get out of jury duty in the first place to decide it for me.

[Nick1236]

Another thing that was brought to my attention was the fact that if I manufacture 80% lowers and by some chance a catastrophic failure occurs, am I liable for the potential damage? Or if the person buying the 80% lower from me finishes it incorrectly and ends up causing some kind of damage am I liable for that?

I would really like to get this going as I think the demand for then is high and I have all the equipment to do it, but frankly I'm starting to get sketched out at the possible lawsuits.

[goober]

From what I understand, it's a bit of a catch-22 - you can go and sell 80% lowers all day long, but unless you are an FFL, you can't get an opinion letter from the ATF that states that they are NOT firearms.

So in order to sell non-FFL items without worry, you need an FFL. Otherwise you just roll the dice and hope you don't end up in jail.

incorrect. one does not need any sort of FFL in order to get a determination letter from BATFE for their proposed "paperweight" product(s).
many current "80%" frame producers have no FFL.
they don't need one, b/c they don't make or sell firearms.