Do These Allow For A Pistol Style Grasp?

[10TH AMENDMENT]

Does anyone here think they see a pistol grip "that allows for a pistol style grasp" on this rifle???

This came off of the Ace LTD. web page with a little editing.




Editing note: I removed the M-96 so the question can be confined to specifically address the "off list" "series" rifle issue.

[bu-bye]

Yes those are both pistol grips. The web of your hand can not be below the exposed part of the trigger.

[10TH AMENDMENT]

Sorry to differ with you bu-bye, but you can put the web of your hand under the top of the exposed part of a trigger on any rifle, just as long as there is no allowance for a pistol style grasp.

And in any event, if you look the rifle, you can easily operate it without the web of your hand being below the top of the exposed trigger. Notice how the beavertail on the AR allows for this kind of operation?

Also, one could simply operate the trigger with the middle finger. This would give the operator a good grasp of the receiver with the trigger hand while at the same time holding the mag and magwell with the opposite hand. This would give the operator excellent control of the rifle while shooting it.

[xenophobe]

There was a dealer who was selling rifles like this at the various gun shows.... I don't remember who it was, but I do remember they were rolled up by the DOJ, and the guy is like driving a taxi or tow truck these days....

[10TH AMENDMENT]

xenophobe:

Are you saying that you know he was convicted of a criminal charge under the CA AW laws for having these specifically configured rifles?

BTW, I am not sugesting that anyone market these pieces of plastic, I'm simply asking whether anyone thinks these configurations allow for a "pistol style grasp", because if they don't, then it doesn't appear that the CA DOJ CCR is being violated.

[ohsmily]

"pistol style grasp" is NOT the language or definition the DOJ uses in analyzing exemplars of pistol grips. They (in their own letters) look at whether the web of the hand can be used to grasp and fire the rifle below the action or if there is any provision to do so. BOTH of the above examples clearly meet that definition and are not in compliance with SB23.

The diagram above with the yellow line is indeed correct for determining whether something is a pistol grip in the eyes of the CA DOJ.

[10TH AMENDMENT]

[U]]"pistol style grasp" is NOT the language or definition the DOJ uses in analyzing exemplars of pistol grips. [/U][/B] They (in their own letters) look at whether the web of the hand can be used to grasp and fire the rifle below the action or if there is any provision to do so. BOTH of the above examples clearly meet that definition and are not in compliance with SB23.

The diagram above with the yellow line is indeed correct for determining whether something is a pistol grip in the eyes of the CA DOJ.

Interesting. Where did you hear this?

[blacklisted]

978.20 (e) Pistol Grip that Protrudes Conspicuously Beneath the Action of the Weapon

This term was originally defined as "any component that allows for the grasp, control, and fire of the firearm where the portion grasped is located beneath an imaginary line drawn parallel to the barrel that runs through the top of the exposed trigger" and noticed during the initial comment period (December 31, 1999 through February 28, 2000). This definition was subject to broad interpretation primarily due to the wording "any component." The definition was accordingly initially revised by replacing "any component" with "a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp." The Department believes that the concept of a "pistol style grasp" is generally understood by persons affected by the regulations. This revision: "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp below the top of the exposed trigger" was noticed to the public during the first 15-day notice period (May 10 through May 30, 2000). Subsequent comments resulted in additional modifications. To further clarify the criteria that establishes a "pistol style grasp" and its relationship to a grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, the condition "in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing" was added to the definition. The revision also reflects a change from "top of the exposed trigger" to "top of the exposed portion of the trigger" because as one contributor pointed out, the former would mean the upper portion of a trigger, a part of which is exposed, with the balance hidden from view in the receiver of the firearm. The final revised definition: "Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing" was noticed during the second 15-day comment period (July 12 through July 31, 2000). Although additional comments were received, no comments were received during the second 15-day comment period that warranted additional revisions to the definition.

I think that both of these would be considered pistol grips, because the web of the hand would be in that position. Sure, the fingers can be in that position in standard rifles, but they don't have the grip as a component.

[ohsmily]

Well, it looks like "pistol style grasp" and the web of the hand language are both used...BUT...the web of the hand description is the basis for their determinations, so if your hand can fit there to grasp the weapon and fire it, you are out of luck. This is bye bu-bye (I think) or some other member, made those brackets that don't allow for a grip there, but still hold the safety selector detent in.

[10TH AMENDMENT]

Aside from case law that interprets the Penal Code, this is the only authority that the DOJ can use to charge and put an individual on trial for violating CA AW laws:

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.

Article 2. Definitions of Terms Used to Identify Assault Weapons
978.20 Definitions

The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:

(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.

(b) "flash suppressor" means any device designed, intended, or that functions to perceptibly reduce or redirect muzzle flash from the shooter's field of vision.

(c) "forward pistol grip" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger.

(d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

(e) "thumbhole stock" means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.

According to the Penal Code and the CCR, a device cannot be defined as a pistol grip unless it is a "pistol grip" that "allows for a pistol style grasp".

[ohsmily]

OK, I agree with your post 10th Am, and it looks like you agree with me that the above examples are pistol grips according to the law. If I were the DA, I would have an easy time of making a demonstration to show that the above examples allow for a pistol STYLE grasp where the web of the shooting hand is below the top of the exposed trigger (the yellow line). The DOJ has interpreted grips like the above as pistol grips before. Local DAs will feel likewise...

BUT, perhaps I can get us a concrete answer sometime in the future, at least for SD county (I have an interview on Wednesday to intern for the SD DA's office. Of course it is just an interview and not a job offer at this point, but we'll see).

[shopkeep]

Grip substitutes really enter a big grey area. Bu-Bye has already proved that they can be fired both while holding the stock (hence without a doubt lawful) AND from the below the imaginary line position. This is why they REALLY need to do away with pistol grips as an Assault Weapon characteristic because it's just too damn vague.

[artherd]

"pistol style grasp" is NOT the language or definition the DOJ uses in analyzing exemplars of pistol grips.

Hate to do this to ya bud, but DOJ does use "Pistol Style Grasp" this in both CCR sec 978.20, and here:

(what we really need is for "Pistol Style Grasp" to be furthur defined... (or for cpc12276 to be repealed in entireity )



Wish I had a pic of the grip in question, and note that ultimately ONLY THE COURTS make law, and DOJ's been found to be wrong by them before.

[saki302]

I do not believe either of the grips are 1. conspicuously portruding and 2. allow for a pistol style grasp' of the weapon.

I personally think they are not pistol grips, but you will be paying for the lawyer to make the court tell you I am right

-Dave

[10TH AMENDMENT]

Ben:

You definitely rise much earlier in the morn than I! 3:07 a.m. sure beats my meager 5:00 a.m. any day.

That letter was going to be in the next reply that I posted today as I continue to build my case.

I literally woke up this morning thinking that it would be great to have a pic of the "thumb hold" grip exemplar that Chuck sent in for the DOJ's opinion.

osmily:

BTW, I totally disagree with your position. And FWIW, I am supremely confident that you would be proven conclusivly wrong with the DOJ's "allows the fingers to wrap firmly around the grip" opinion letter rendered on 12/17/03, Judicial notice of the relevant PC and CCR sections, and my expert's in-court evidentiary demonstration of what a "pistol style grasp" actually means according to the DOJ's written opinion in response to a Public Record Act request from an Officer of the court.

Shopkeep:

I was also going to point out the video demonstration by bu-buy wherin he clearly demonstrates that operation of a non-AW AR with his SRB can be accomplished with the web of the trigger hand positioned below the "imaginary line". I was also going to point out that this apearantly totally comports with the law because there is absolutely no "pistol style grasp" being employed or even possible according to the DOJ letter to Chuck.

10TH