Straw purchace vs gift

[anymoose]

i want to buy my friend a lower for her birthday, and id like to to be a surprise since its a birthday present.

do straw purchases only pertain to buying a gun for a restricted person?

this is what i would like to do - take her mom or dad to the gun store, buy "them" a lower, and have them transfer the lower to her.

im assuming the dros paper work makes this illegal though?

is my only option to take her with me and have her dros the lower and then i pay for the lower?



also - i wouldnt do this, and im only asking out of curiosity, but if someone were to buy a long gun, then just give it to someone else, could that ever be tracked, and if so, how?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

You have two options...

You can buy the lower and DROS it yourself. Then 10 days later bring it home and gift wrap it. Then "give" it to her on her birthday and immediately go down to a local gun shop with her and do a PPT from you to her for $35. She would then pick it up 10 days later.

Or you can go with her to the gun shop and pay for the lower while she DROS's it. Many dealers will balk at this even if you explain that you are buying her the lower as a birthday gift. They will suspect that you might be doing a straw purchase because your actions will fit the pattern that ATF and the NSSF warn dealers to look out for. You will have better luck if the dealer is someone you have DROS'd from before that knows you aren't a prohibited person.

Giving the parents money to buy a firearm that is really a gift from you to their daughter would be considered a straw purchase by the feds and a violation of CPC 27520 by CalDOJ.

If her parents genuinely wanted to give her a lower for her birthday then they could buy one from a dealer or do a PPT for one through a dealer and then just give the lower to their daughter as a gift with no further paperwork. But it's illegal for them to pretend to be buying it as a gift from them to her when it is really a gift from you to her. It's all about intent. In almost every other State you could buy it from a dealer with the intent of giving it to her as a gift. ATF says that when you buy a firearm with the intent to give it to somebody else as a bona fide gift then you are the actual purchaser of the firearm and it is not a straw purchase. But California's restriction on private transfers screws this up unless you are buying a gift for a qualified "family" member or some other person to whom transfer wouldn't require dealer involvement.

[anymoose]

You have two options...

You can buy the lower and DROS it yourself. Then 10 days later bring it home and gift wrap it. Then "give" it to her on her birthday and immediately go down to a local gun shop with her and do a PPT from you to her for $35. She would then pick it up 10 days later.

Or you can go with her to the gun shop and pay for the lower while she DROS's it. Many dealers will balk at this even if you explain that you are buying her the lower as a birthday gift. They will suspect that you might be doing a straw purchase because your actions will fit the pattern that ATF and the NSSF warn dealers to look out for. You will have better luck if the dealer is someone you have DROS'd from before that knows you aren't a prohibited person.

Giving the parents money to buy a firearm that is really a gift from you to their daughter would be considered a straw purchase by the feds and a violation of CPC 27520 by CalDOJ.

If her parents genuinely wanted to give her a lower for her birthday then they could buy one from a dealer or do a PPT for one through a dealer and then just give the lower to their daughter as a gift with no further paperwork. But it's illegal for them to pretend to be buying it as a gift from them to her when it is really a gift from you to her. It's all about intent. In almost every other State you could buy it from a dealer with the intent of giving it to her as a gift. ATF says that when you buy a firearm with the intent to give it to somebody else as a bona fide gift then you are the actual purchaser of the firearm and it is not a straw purchase. But California's restriction on private transfers screws this up unless you are buying a gift for a qualified "family" member or some other person to whom transfer wouldn't require dealer involvement.

thats what i was thinking

the good news is ive bought and transferred quite a few firearms at the dealer i would be taking her to, so they would know its not her buying the gun for me.

the bad news is that her brithday is less than 20 days away, so the surprise is blown, and ill have to tell her to go to the gun shop with me to pick out a lower.

the other good news is that its her first gun, and i think its gonna be a good one. she wants to build a basic 16" M4, and upgrade later as she gets more familiar with the rifle.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

...the bad news is that her brithday is less than 20 days away, so the surprise is blown, and ill have to tell her to go to the gun shop with me to pick out a lower.

If you want to buy it first and then PPT it to her on her birthday you only need 10 days. The second 10 day wait will happen after she unwraps it on her birthday. Of course, this will add an extra $35 for the PPT fee.

[GOEX FFF]

If you want to buy it first and then PPT it to her on her birthday you only need 10 days. The second 10 day wait will happen after she unwraps it on her birthday. Of course, this will add an extra $35 for the PPT fee.

^^^ This to me also sounds like the best option. You still have enough time for your own 1st 10 day, to get show it to her on her B-day. She'll still have to wait for the 10 ban regardless, but at least she'll get to see it for the first time on her actual B-day and it remains a surprise.

[littlejake]

...also - i wouldnt do this, and im only asking out of curiosity, but if someone were to buy a long gun, then just give it to someone else, could that ever be tracked, and if so, how?

California does not keep information on long gun DROS beyond a certain number of days. But, out of the GCA of 1968 the federal form 4473 was born. Those are kept by the dealer and must be turned in if the dealer ever goes out of business. So, long guns bought from dealers have been traceable (although not by automated means) since circa 1969 when the GCA went into effect.

It's only been since 01/01/1991 that California has mandated all modern gun transfers be done through a dealer.

The BATFE is digitizing out of business records, against the explicit letter of the law, into a database.

So, if a person buys a long gun and gives it to someone else in an unpapered transfer, and it turns up say in a crime; ATF can trace the long gun to the original buyer, who, it the words of Ricky Ricardo, "Lucy, you got some splainin' to do!"

[VegasND]

Buy her a gift card from the store and wrap it up with a note explaing that you're giving her a lower for her new build.

She can go to the store and do the paperwork when she has time.

Sucks to live under such restrictions but it's still a very nice gift.

[Clownpuncher]

Buy her a gift card from the store and wrap it up with a note explaing that you're giving her a lower for her new build.

She can go to the store and do the paperwork when she has time.

Sucks to live under such restrictions but it's still a very nice gift.

^^^ This.

Get creative with it. Get a card, get a picture, get a gift card. Or, put a piece for the lower in a box with a gift card and tell her the gift card is for the rest of the lower. I wouldn't purchase it and then pay $35 to transfer it back to her. If I had the extra $35 I wouldn't waste it on another DROS, I'd get creative with a gift card and use the $35 for an intro massage gift card at Massage Envy or a manicure or some other girly thing she can go "immediately" get.

[Bandsecurity]

You have two options...

You can buy the lower and DROS it yourself. Then 10 days later bring it home and gift wrap it. Then "give" it to her on her birthday and immediately go down to a local gun shop with her and do a PPT from you to her for $35. She would then pick it up 10 days later.

Or you can go with her to the gun shop and pay for the lower while she DROS's it. Many dealers will balk at this even if you explain that you are buying her the lower as a birthday gift. They will suspect that you might be doing a straw purchase because your actions will fit the pattern that ATF and the NSSF warn dealers to look out for. You will have better luck if the dealer is someone you have DROS'd from before that knows you aren't a prohibited person.

Giving the parents money to buy a firearm that is really a gift from you to their daughter would be considered a straw purchase by the feds and a violation of CPC 27520 by CalDOJ.

If her parents genuinely wanted to give her a lower for her birthday then they could buy one from a dealer or do a PPT for one through a dealer and then just give the lower to their daughter as a gift with no further paperwork. But it's illegal for them to pretend to be buying it as a gift from them to her when it is really a gift from you to her. It's all about intent. In almost every other State you could buy it from a dealer with the intent of giving it to her as a gift. ATF says that when you buy a firearm with the intent to give it to somebody else as a bona fide gift then you are the actual purchaser of the firearm and it is not a straw purchase. But California's restriction on private transfers screws this up unless you are buying a gift for a qualified "family" member or some other person to whom transfer wouldn't require dealer involvement.

Actually, you have a third option. You could actually read Form 4473 which clearly states that you may purchase a firearm as a gift - "For purposes of this form the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm /from pawn/retrieving it from consignment. firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party." http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

The above can be found on page 4 of the form. They even have an example they cite.

Most the guys that post on this forum have no clue what they post about and spout opinion as fact. It is obvious that they have not read the form they have supposedly completed when they purchased the guns they own.

Buy the lower for her, unless you have knowledge that she would be prohibited from owning a firearm - age , felony etc... and give it to her as gift.

It is stupid uninformed responses like the one above that makes me not want to look at this forum as much as I used to.

[QQQ]

Wow; I've filled out that form so many times and never even noticed that!

Actually, you have a third option. You could actually read Form 4473 which clearly states that you may purchase a firearm as a gift - "For purposes of this form the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm /from pawn/retrieving it from consignment. firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party." http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

The above can be found on page 4 of the form. They even have an example they cite.

Most the guys that post on this forum have no clue what they post about and spout opinion as fact. It is obvious that they have not read the form they have supposedly completed when they purchased the guns they own.

Buy the lower for her, unless you have knowledge that she would be prohibited from owning a firearm - age , felony etc... and give it to her as gift.

It is stupid uninformed responses like the one above that makes me not want to look at this forum as much as I used to.

[Ctwo]

I'm glad I did not post, but glad I read...

score two for the antis...

[Ctwo]

What I was going to say was that it does not matter where the money comes from, only who is registering the arm. Anyway, the example uses distinct terms that I was not able to find defined therin, such as the distinction between a transferee and a licensee...the document obfuscates the terms as follows, making text searches impossible:

direct copy paste from form:

"Que s t ion l I . a . Ac tua l Tr ans f e r e e /Buye r : For purpos e s of this fonn. you arc
the actual transferee/buyer i f you a r c pur cha s ing the fireann for your s e l f or
otherwise acquiring the firearm for your s e l f (e.g., redeeming the firearm /rom
pawn/retrieving it Fom consignment. firearm raffle winner). Yo~ a r c als~ the
aetnal transferee/buyer i f you arc legitimately purchasing the fireanll as a gift
for a third pany. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr.
Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a f i r e a rm for Mr. Smifh. Mr. Smifh gives Mr.
Jones the money for the t i r e a rm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the fireanll and mnst answer "NO" to question I La . The
lkens e e may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones"

[Bandsecurity]

You have two options...
[INDENT]
Giving the parents money to buy a firearm that is really a gift from you to their daughter would be considered a straw purchase by the feds and a violation of CPC 27520 by CalDOJ.

If her parents genuinely wanted to give her a lower for her birthday then they could buy one from a dealer or do a PPT for one through a dealer and then just give the lower to their daughter as a gift with no further paperwork. But it's illegal for them to pretend to be buying it as a gift from them to her when it is really a gift from you to her. It's all about intent. In almost every other State you could buy it from a dealer with the intent of giving it to her as a gift. ATF says that when you buy a firearm with the intent to give it to somebody else as a bona fide gift then you are the actual purchaser of the firearm and it is not a straw purchase. But California's restriction on private transfers screws this up unless you are buying a gift for a qualified "family" member or some other person to whom transfer wouldn't require dealer involvement.

This is wrong too. It is a straw purchase if the intended recepient of the gun is a person that would not be legally able own a firearm.

I should point out that the original purchaser can buy the gift for his GF but he must go to an FFL if he wants to effectuate the transfer. Just like you would for a sale. That is the only difference tha CA law makes if it is not a family member.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Actually, you have a third option. You could actually read Form 4473 which clearly states that you may purchase a firearm as a gift - "For purposes of this form the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm /from pawn/retrieving it from consignment. firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party." http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

The above can be found on page 4 of the form. They even have an example they cite.

Yeah, I already mentioned that. ATF says it's perfectly legal to buy a firearm with the intent to give it as a gift to another person.

...In almost every other State you could buy it from a dealer with the intent of giving it to her as a gift. ATF says that when you buy a firearm with the intent to give it to somebody else as a bona fide gift then you are the actual purchaser of the firearm and it is not a straw purchase. But California's restriction on private transfers screws this up unless you are buying a gift for a qualified "family" member or some other person to whom transfer wouldn't require dealer involvement.

Did you even read my post before trying to "educate" us?

Buy the lower for her, unless you have knowledge that she would be prohibited from owning a firearm - age , felony etc... and give it to her as gift.

WRONG!!!

Like I said, this would work in almost every other State. But California law requires most gift transfers of firearms to go through a California dealer. A transfer to a girlfriend is not an exempt family transfer.

Most the guys that post on this forum have no clue what they post about and spout opinion as fact. It is obvious that they have not read the form they have supposedly completed when they purchased the guns they own.

It is stupid uninformed responses like the one above that makes me not want to look at this forum as much as I used to.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

This is wrong too. It is a straw purchase if the intended recepient of the gun is a person that would not be legally able own a firearm.

That's your definition of a straw purchase. Unfortunately it is not ATF's definition.

I should point out that the original purchaser can buy the gift for his GF but he must go to an FFL if he wants to effectuate the transfer. Just like you would for a sale. That is the only difference tha CA law makes if it is not a family member.

Wait, so now your "third way" for people who actually read the 4473 has suddenly morphed into my "first way". Nice!