if less then 30inches , can the rifle be fired in its shortest configuration ?

[Jeepers]

I don't understand where a confusion is. If the rifle is semi auto, centerfire and under 30 inches, it is an AW. What other definitions do you need?

that is NOT what the flow chart says

the flow chart says

is the rifles overall length under 30 inches ? if less then 30 inches ,can the rifle be fired from its shortest configuration

and thats where the confusion is coming from

[Bhobbs]

that is NOT what the flow chart says

the flow chart says

and thats where the confusion is coming from

The flow chart is asking you if the rifle can fire in the shortest configuration. If yes, you follow the yes line. If no, you follow the no line.

[CrazyPhuD]

that is NOT what the flow chart says

the flow chart says

and thats where the confusion is coming from

No offense but this is an extraordinary simple point there actually is no ambiguity.

The courts have ruled that, when in california, you measure minimum length in the shortest possible condition that fires(not longest like federal).

The CA AW ban says minimum length is 30 inches.

That's it....it's that simple....

Now if you want to make the foolish argument that 'shortest operable length' isn't written in the law and therefor it doesn't count then good luck with that. The system works by having the courts determine what the law is to mean. If you don't like that fine, but you should also then destroy any ARs or AKs you have that aren't RAWs, because is IS written into the law ANY AR-15 type or ANY AK-47 type is an AW. Fortunately for, us the courts have determined that they must name specific models and not generic names.

[phamkl]

I think the question is, "where in the PC does it state the if the rifle cannot be fired whilst folded it's legal"

And I believe the answer is that, if the rifle cannot fire, it is not a firearm, or not considered one with regards to the AW laws. I think it's similar to the bullet button, where an extra step was added to make it comply with CA law. I hope someone else who knows more for certain, comes by and clarifies but I don't think searching for the PC that makes it legal will work - it's making sure that the PC that makes it illegal isn't in existence.

Edit: buuuut it seems to exist in court rulings that the measurement for OAL is when the firearm can fire.

[Burbur]

Confucius say: If a rifle cannot be fire at all, is it really semi-automatic?

[stix213]

If folded in a manner in which the rifle can't be fired could still violate the OAL requirement, then a lot of Kel-Tec su-16ca owners would be in jail and the FFLs that sold them would be in hot water for selling a 24.9" OAL centerfire semi-auto rifle. The DOJ is obviously interpreting OAL in the same manner as the flowchart, or these sales would have been stopped by now. It doesn't need to have been already spelled out in previous case law or signed by the governor to be the correct legal interpretation.

Same goes for every break action shotgun or rifle ever sold in California. It appears to be pretty established that a break action is not violating OAL.
IANAL

[winnre]

How about when the stock is folded the firing mechanism is disabled. Now it's legal under 30".

[morthrane]

Anyone who thinks this is an extremely simple, black and white question obviously hasn't dealt with lawyers much.

I think the question is, "where in the PC does it state the if the rifle cannot be fired whilst folded it's legal"

And I believe the answer is that, if the rifle cannot fire, it is not a firearm, or not considered one with regards to the AW laws. I think it's similar to the bullet button, where an extra step was added to make it comply with CA law. I hope someone else who knows more for certain, comes by and clarifies but I don't think searching for the PC that makes it legal will work - it's making sure that the PC that makes it illegal isn't in existence.

I've been curious for a while myself on the exact PC and case law that determines whether a given rifle is AW or not based on firing length-- I even spent a couple hours doing searches in this forum on the subject but didn't come up with much.

The "cannot fire" provision is the crux of the issue IMHO. Think about it this way: if the powers that be can rule that a semi-auto slamfire malfunction constitutes a machine-gun felony, what will they say if your under 30" OAL rifle with a floating firing pin is dropped a couple feet onto concrete as a "test" and discharges, even though it is in a configuration where it could not otherwise fire via trigger? Absurd, yes... but ignorance is no defense when it comes to the law, and I get the impression that an unethical DA would have no problem with abusing such an absurdity if the end result is a conviction.

[Carnivore]

How I take it isn't a matter of law but is the rifle working. If it is missing the bolt and under 30" technically it isn't an assault weapon. If the stock swings to the side and some how disengages the firing pin or some how when the rife is in it's shortest configuration it can't fire then it isn't an assault weapon.

To me this is ridiculously easy to figure out and I think you are over thinking it. Doesn't mean you can't or won't be arrested just more of a rule of thumb less a law or legal definition. Like the bullet button needs a "tool" to drop the mag doesn't mean you can't be or won't be arrested by some LEO wanting to push things.

[ke6guj]

the basis behind the question is the case law from Rooney that says that you measure the OAL while it is folded. EVen though Rooney was dealing with the 26" SBR law, and not the 30" AW law, it is assumed that it would be persuasive in an AW case.

Now, the issue with a folded rifle that is under 30" folded being legal if it can't be fired while it is folded is using the fact that CADOJ allows the SU16-CA to be sold in CA without it being considered an AW or SBR. Because they have allowed them to be sold for many years without any arrests, it should be able to be assumed that that same "unable to fire while folded" scenario should be legal for other rifles.

[Jeepers]

the basis behind the question is the case law from Rooney that says that you measure the OAL while it is folded. EVen though Rooney was dealing with the 26" SBR law, and not the 30" AW law, it is assumed that it would be persuasive in an AW case.

Now, the issue with a folded rifle that is under 30" folded being legal if it can't be fired while it is folded is using the fact that CADOJ allows the SU16-CA to be sold in CA without it being considered an AW or SBR. Because they have allowed them to be sold for many years without any arrests, it should be able to be assumed that that same "unable to fire while folded" scenario should be legal for other rifles.

i found where that wording came from in the old flow chart thread and it did have to do with the su16ca, but is the su16ca really a "folding stock" personally i dont see it that way, i see it broke down just like any AR, it breaks the trigger and hammer completely away from the bolt, so i am hopping that the su16ca is not the basis for this wording is in the flow chart... or if it is i am thinking that wording may need to be changed ...

[ke6guj]

i found where that wording came from in the old flow chart thread and it did have to do with the su16ca, but is the su16ca really a "folding stock" personally i dont see it that way, i see it broke down just like any AR, it breaks the trigger and hammer completely away from the bolt, so i am hopping that the su16ca is not the basis for this wording is in the flow chart... or if it is i am thinking that wording may need to be changed ...

not really sure what you are trying to say here, but I would re-write question #9 as such, "Is the rifle less than 30" in overall length in its shortest fireable configuration?". That would follow the Rooney case law and cover the AW 30" rule. For question #1, the question would be "Does the rifle have a barrel less that 16", or is the rifle's overall length in its shortest fireable configuration less that 26"?"

[nicoroshi]

I am glad Jeepers decided to pose this question here and people like you (ke6guj) have decided to answer.
responses regarding Jeepers mod idea

not really sure what you are trying to say here, but I would re-write question #9 as such, "Is the rifle less than 30" in overall length in its shortest fireable configuration?".

No

That would follow the Rooney case law and cover the AW 30" rule. For question #1, the question would be "Does the rifle have a barrel less that 16", or is the rifle's overall length in its shortest fireable configuration less that 26"?"

No again.

In fact with this mod the button for the stock cannot even be depressed unless the FCG is disabled by the selector being in the safe position.
It then at no time can be taken off 'safe' until the stock is back in the locked opened position using this mod.

My thoughts (please correct me if I am wrong in any way)

To my understanding this would cease to be a semi auto rifle during the time the stock was unlocked from the locked open position since it would be unable to fire during that time.
To my understanding it also wouldn't matter that the rifle is aprox 25.5" in length when folded since again it can't be considered a functional firearm if it cannot fire in that configuration.

My major concern was the wording on the 26" federal SBR designation and per Rooney it's implications in CA where measured distance is with stock folded.

If the UF is no longer considered a functional firearm when it is unable to fire than this concern is moot.

I have been doing a bunch of research on this, and could not find any laws or case law to support my thinking

I guess what I am really looking for is educated opinions on if this mod is defensible in a court of law as complying with all federal, and state regulations.

[tonelar]

I owned a carbine that I bought legally when CA law mirrored federal laws re oal (ie measured with stock extended) that was over 26".
When CA changed their method of measuring (stock folded), I swapped my barrel for a longer one.

I think the wording is meant to exclude take-down or camping style rifles that can be collapsed to under 30" but in doing so, cannot be fired at all.

[bplvr]

in a nut shell what Jeeper's question really is:

Can a semi-auto firearm that cannot fire when the overall length is 26.2",
but is able to fire when it is 34.1" in overall length be legal in Ca. ?
{how it got from 26.2" to 34" is immaterial,and it cannot fire anywhere along this transition.}

Please site the case law that backs up this inference.